I've got a friend, known him four years. We used to hang out a lot and do some really fun stuff - random and spontaneous missions setting ourselves silly objectives at weird hours, getting drunk and dancing about in boxers, going clubbing and seeing how many guys we could get into handcuffs... you get the idea.

Over time he seemed to drift away into a series of relationships, and so we didn't see much of each other and he's not the best at staying in contact. We'd run into each other in clubs and have a right good catch-up, and sometimes chat on MSN if he had access to a PC.

I always got the impression the relationships he got into weren't entirely wholesome for one reason or another. He tended to do what he was told without thinking for himself and I remember several times thinking he didn't really seem happy - more like he was going through the motions. The couple of 'boyfriends' I did meet briefly struck me as 'strange' in some way but at the time I didn't really think too hard about it.

Until recently, I hadn't heard from him in over a year. Since then I've been trying to re-establish our friendship by taking time out to chat to him. Soon after he signs into MSN I'll get an "Ayup" and I'll focus on trying to chat with him.

The problem is, unless the conversation is about sex he just won't talk. When I say sex, I mean as in he wants to have sex with me, or expects me to want it with him. If I move off the subject he goes quiet.

Last night the same thing was happening and I thought I'd indulge him just to keep him talking. I suggested we get together to catch up whilst I'm back in the U.K. packing stuff for shipping. He got very interactive at this point, but his assumption (or question) was "for sex?". I said no, and he went quiet. Didn't say anything about meeting up.

I introduced something 'spicy' into the conversation and he starts chatting again, but I can't get him to talk to me unless it's around sex.

At one point he said, "get me drunk and have sex with me", to which I replied, "I prefer sober sex". He then said "I don't do sober sex". When, after much pleading to see a video of me and an ex-boyfriend I finally refused, he just says "Boring" and goes offline without saying 'bye'.

At one point when I'd asked him recently where he was living now, he replied "with a bloke, but he's not my boyfriend". The way he phrased that was very strange - and made me wonder about this 'bloke' but I couldn't get anything out of him. I asked about how his family (mother and brothers, and pet dog) are and got no response.

He never used to talk or behave this way, so it stands out as abnormal.

My gut feeling is that there's something very wrong with the situation he's in. The thing is, unusually for me, I'm having difficulty pin-pointing what it might be because I've always had a soft-spot for him and I think that is colouring my perspective.

My worry is he's got into a situation where being used is the only thing that makes him feel valued. The comment about "sober sex" in particular bothers me - the implication being he needs alcohol to forget himself, and sex is the only thing that makes him feel appreciated by someone. He was never one to need alcohol to be an extrovert although he would come across as shy until he knew someone
He's never been flirty with me in the past even when we've done exhibitionist things. The way he's being now isn't flirty though, it's full on demand.

I'd welcome any thoughts you guys might have on this or similar experiences.

Tristain-

Sounds to me like you've got a leg hound.

From the Urban Dictionary:

Leg Hound: 1. a male dog the humps your leg
2. a young man with a powerful sex drive that will f**k anybody, anything, anywhere, anytime.

1. What could be more awkward than meeting your girlfriends parents with their damned leg hound humping and nutting on your shin

You will need to keep one of the following items within reach:

• Garden Hose
• Mace
• Taser
• stick
• cattle prod

If he can't get any from you, he will eventually move on to someone who will give it up.

Yeah, I had considered that, and if that were it I wouldn't be concerned for him, although I'd breath a sigh of relief that I was so far away he can't do anything about it!
The strange way he's acting tells me it's something different since we used to have reasonable conversations that never involved sex. Besides, I'm usually thousands of miles away from him so if he just wanted to be a leg-hound there's plenty of guys local to him that could do that duty

He's a very touchy-feely type that used to react well to people around him showing they cared. Now he's the exact opposite. My intuition tells me he's crying out to be loved but the only way he can express it is to chase the sex - hence my theory about his relationship experiences not being entirely wholesome.

Something else I didn't mention that struck me as odd. I asked him if he was working and he said no, well, sort-of. He's always been a go-getter when it came to getting a job and sticking at it. The way he said 'sort-of' made a few bells ring in my head. He sounded almost ashamed to tell me, and I did briefly wonder if he's renting.

I was going to invite him to come visit for a few weeks when it gets hot in Spain to give him a break, but this is making me think that wouldn't be such a good idea.

I think that you've right, with your intuition, it sounds like he's in desperate need to be loved and that he'd settle for anything to get more intimate with someone.

It does seems like he might have some personal problems.

Ugh! I can't stand people like that. I have no qualms about friends w/ benies, but if all you are to that friend is a "piece of a**" then that's not a true friend. As far as your list of handy items, you forgot vases and/or frying pans.

I could be way off base here, but it sounds to me like he's gotten himself into a lot of trouble and he's crying out to you for help. He might have recognized that his current situation is unacceptable and the to way to fix it is to take a few steps backwards, to old friends that made him happy (this is where you come in). Unfortunately it seems as though he's forgotten what you guys did to be happy, and so he wants to do with you what has recently made him happy -- drunk sex. I would try as hard as you can to get together with him, but not for sex. In fact, don't do anything sexual at all, just hang out with him.

Again, I could be way off-base, but the comments about work and sober sex are sending up a lot of red flags, and the sooner you meet with him the better.

My best friend was recently sent home by his school (military school) because he was depressed and they were afraid that he would be the next school shooter. They wouldn't let him back on campus until he'd seen a psychiatrist. I made it a point to head home that weekend as soon as possible to talk to him and make sure he was ok. Spent that Friday night and all day Saturday with him. He's depressed because his hardcore girlfriend of three years broke it off, and he's been bouncing around with other girls, lost his virginity to a crazy one in bareback sex, and has been getting drunk and high a lot since he got his class ring. His ex is a bitch, and he recognizes that now, but his problem is that he attaches himself people way to easily and feels like he needs to have a girlfriend to be happy. I think your friend might be the same way, and he attached himself to the wrong people, and so now he needs to be used to be happy.

I hope your friend gets sorted out soon. I've seen that happen to other friends and it's not easy or pretty.

I think your analysis of why he's behaving this way is running along the same lines as mine. The problem is I can't do the 'be there' thing for him. I'm returning to Spain on Friday so I just don't have the time for it. I hoped to chat with him this afternoon when he appeared on MSN but he ignored me and went off soon after. He changes his phone number frequently too, but next time he's on I'll try to get that from him.

I used to have his younger brother's MSN contact but he seems to have changed it, and I don't think I ever had his mom's phone number. I could drive over to the house where they lived when we hung out together, but the family could have moved of course. I also don't want to step on toes by interferring unless I know how thing stand between him and his family.

I still have that nagging doubt about what's going on and my suspicions, simply because he's avoiding talking about anything much at all. I don't want to do something based on misreading the situation and upset him more!

I suspect what I'll end up doing is keeping on trying to chat to him on-line whenever he's receptive, and try to persuade him to come over and visit me for a couple of weeks. I'm figuring it'll be harder for him to run away once he's visiting if I push him to talk to me about 'stuff', which he could do if he's at home.
Also, the change of scene might help him see more clearly. If he does want help then there's always the possibility he could stay and get a job in a bar - there's loads of bar-work going over the summer tourist season and he'd do well, not least because he's photogenic

Yes...not a good idea. James' posting of Leg Hound cracked me up. However, it sounds like your friend is experiencing personal problems, self esteem issues, sex addiction, mis-directed friendship, etc. Way beyond being just plain horny. As RKnapp said, lots of red flags.

I suggest you research what sort of help lines are available that your friend could call (In Spain?) and prepare a heart-to-heart email. You be a real friend and be honest with him.

Jack

May I ask a question, Tris? Just how much do you care about this guy?

Someone who is only comfortable having sex when drugs or alcohol is involved most definitely has some serious issues to work through. Typically, it is due to some sort of sense of self-loathing or poor self-esteem. It might also be largely about the sex itself. If at some level he's come to view sex as something dirty, bad, or otherwise disgusting then there's a great deal of escapism in play.

I admire your desire to help him, and I'd want to do the same, but it sounds to me like he's going to need therapy and the first step is going to be to get him off alcohol (and any drugs). He may indeed have simply fallen in with the wrong crowd and gotten himself into a rough spot, but if he's internalized it sufficiently that he "won't do sober sex" and isn't interested in relating to you in anything but a sexual way...well then unfortunately I don't think simply removing him from the environment (in a physical, literal way) isn't going to be enough.

I've lost a friend to his own form of addiction - which interestingly enough developed after he broke the addiction to drugs and alcohol - it's very sad and it's not going to stop hurting when you think about it, but after they reach a point all you can do is let go and move on, and perhaps try to let them know that if they do want to come back you'll be there to help.

If you think inviting him to visit for awhile will help, and indeed I suppose it might, then go for it, but try not to get too involved or invested in something you may not be able to fix. To be honest, based on the description you've given, he doesn't sound like anyone you particularly need in your life at this point, and with the way he's acting I can't imagine wanting him in your life either. I'm assuming it's old loyalty and affections as well as good old fashioned compassion that's keeping you from disengaging completely. As I said, very admirable, just be sure you don't take it too far.


Are you sure? I mean have you seen him recently outside of photos?


Good luck! I'm pulling for you, and him
-Kevin

As with all my friends that have never dumped on me, I care a lot and unconditionally. It used to be a standing joke that I have an over-developed caring gland!

You brought up some good points about what might happen if I get involved. Of course, it takes two to tango so he'd have to agree with it on some level for it to fly and make the effort to come visit.


Well, I never try to 'fix' people but I hope I can be there to help them see things objectively and positively; persuade them of the merits of change when the going is rough. I've never been one to worry about achieving the objective as long as I do my best along the route.

I think I said in another post someplace, there's a tennent I try to live my life by, from "Falling In Love" by Kent Nerburn. He's talking about Love:


At this point in my life I can't imagine being stronger or more able to be there for him, if we can overcome the distance issue. He's a really sweet guy and great fun to be around (we were always laughing at ourselves and things around us) so I'd not be wary of him being in my life - and I'm incredibly focused and determined when it comes to dealing with people so that doesn't worry me. If he tries to force the sex issue, well, I've got eight pairs of cuffs and plenty of good trailer rope

From what I've been able to describe you guys seem to be in rough agreement with my take on the situation, so unless some unexpected revelation occurs I think I'll work at getting him to come spend some time with me. My plan would be to get him back to enjoying things the way he used to rather than being all heavy and deep, let him be reminded of how good things can be without sex, and see how he reacts

I might allow him to dance in his boxers but hell, he's great eye-candy, so there's got to be some perks

Another couple thought... on a more serious note

One of the many problems that victims of childhood sexual abuse suffer from in adolescence and/or young adulthood is a tendency toward "hyper-sexuality" or even full fledged sexual addiction. It is almost always rooted in sexual abuse. People like this tend to think that relationships/friendships always have a sexual component and if you aren't interested in sex, you aren't interested in them. This causes a great deal of confusion and angst on the part of the abuse victim and his friends and relations suffer for it.

When you said "rent" on first read, I didn't understand the implications but it fits the profile to a tee. Rent/hustling is very common especially in the young adult Gay/bi community- more common than we would like to admit. Usually when we think of someone who is "on the rent" or hustling, we tend to think of homeless youth or addicts who are doing it for survival. More and more, it is being done for convenience or expedience. Whether it be a "special friendship" with someone who is older for their help with jobs, a place to live or money, whatever you call it to justify or rationalize it, it is still trading sex for money.

I won't judge a person who is doing it. I did it myself to support an addiction when I was younger. The problem is that each and every time you lose a little bit of your soul and there is a point where you can quit but you'll never be the same. Again, this is very bad for relationships because who wants a used up hustler? If you don't tell the truth there is a power secret out there somewhere that can really kick your ass.

All I can say is this is a game that you don't want to play. Psycho Johns, Pimps, sexually transmitted diseases, cops, dirty cops, bashers, rapists: it is a seriously bad scene. You will never get enough money to cover what your dignity was worth.

I noticed this too. This is often because a person hasn't come to terms with their sexuality. It is very common for a person with this problem to hustle or sell sex. They rationalize that since someone is paying for it, they aren't really gay. I know- it sounds stupid and crazy but those are the kind of tricks the closeted mind plays upon itself.

One might argue that some of the worst enemies ever to square off against gay rights were screwed up closet queens that hang out in mens rooms and pass homophobic legislation.

I would certainly agree with that. Not just with the example you pointed out, but in general I think GLBT people who have trouble coping are often the worst homophobes and also the ones that make us look the worst by (perceived) association.

James, you make some very good points.


I've had to deal with people from this background so I'm pretty familiar with the signs. In this case, fortunately, I'm not seeing any of the typical indicators that would make me even suspect this was the root of this friend's issues.

Also, I know his mom - she's almost the same age as me and we went to the same school - and when he and I first met and discovered this surprising fact first time I met her, I think I spent more time catching up with his mom than I spent time with him! Back then he had a really good close relationship with his mom. His father lived elsewhere but they saw each other frequently and as far as I am aware there wasn't an issue there.


I think this is closer to the mark, or at least in my mind it seems much more plausible. I had been thinking along these lines but, as I said originally, my thinking is somewhat coloured. Objectively, this makes the best sense so far. It also makes me more worried for him since for him to have got to the point where this is only way he can relate to me after all the no-strings genuine good times we shared means his perspective is pretty messed up.


If there's one thing he has come to terms with, it's being gay - he loves it

Then it's curious that he doesn't want to experience the sex that goes along with it unless he's drunk.

We don't know that's his attitude in all circumstances. I reported what he said to me in a chat session but I have no idea if that applies to his life generally.

He seems to be avoiding me since telling me I'm 'Boring' so I'll leave it a while before I try to get him to talk to me again.

Tristan-

This is a real tricky fine line. There are a lot of men who really enjoy having sex with other men but they do not consider themselves gay. They marry, have kids and all the hetero trimmings but they have a hobby: they like to have sex with other men.

To get to this place some real twisted psycological stuff is going on. Typically they are acting out of religious, strong family pressure/expectations or fear of social consequences.

With some fraction of these people they can love the sex and hate themselves at the same time.

Having gay sex and accepting your sexuality are two competely different things. The guy that only has or wants gay sex when he is drunk is a classic case. By being drunk he rationalizes that since he was drunk and out of control, he isn't REALLY gay.

I know it sounds stupid and shallow but the head games that closet cases play with themselves are like this.

There are plenty on here. I am not picking on anyone. It took many of them a long time to accept their sexuality. A lot of it is generational. However, there are still some who live in closed-minded areas who still may live in fear. Therefore the closet is a good place to hide. If a person can deny it to himself, he can easily escape it for a while. However, there is an eventuality where there is no choice but to deal with it. Even though it's been almost 40 years since the Stonewall riots, many still agonize about what their families and friends with think of who they really are.

Alcohol has a tendency of bringing out the deepest desires of the heart. I try to avoid drinking because of that. One of my deepest desires is to say exactly what I think and damn anyone who doesn't like it. For those who become amorous from drinking, they are even friendlier than they are at other times. Alcohol and drugs can also numb deep pain. The pain may be from his sexuality. It could also be something else such as a relationship gone bad in the past or sexual abuse. Regardless, alcohol is not a healthy way to "deal" with problems.

Those are excellent points, James, and I think you're right in quite a few cases! I have a hunch though that that isn't exactly the case here. It sounds to me like Tris' friend is openly gay and has been for quite sometime. Denying it probably isn't a viable option anymore. I also have a hunch that at one point he probably was okay with it as Tristan has indicated. Instead, what I think most likely happened is that somewhere along the way some things happened which might have made him tie sex and being gay into some very bad stuff which deep down he doesn't like that he's a part of. In other words he might have gone from being okay with being gay, to having issues with it and especially sex.

Just my hunch though.



This is going to sound obvious and overly simple, but you really ought to try to put yourself into an environment in which - and surround yourself with the sort of people with whom - you can be yourself without needing to hide these deep desires in the first place. Hiding anything like that is stressful and eventually if you're not careful it'll bring about unwanted consequences.

Alcohol is a trick beast indeed. It's interesting, I've certainly never tried to use it as an escape, but I've very frequently used it recreationally. Fortunately it's always been something I enjoy, but can take or leave alone entirely. I suppose what's really interesting is that even before I was out I was never particularly concerned about saying or doing "too much" when drunk. I don't know, just never worried much. Now, I don't think there's anything in particular which I could say or do when drunk that would embarrass me. My life is an open book and I welcome readers.

You've got it right there, Kevin.

He's been out and happy since he was 13 or 14. His family have always given him positive support and he loves being out in gay pubs and clubs and hanging out with guys. He's 22 this month.

I don't think this is about his sexuality. It's more about how he perceives demonstrations of caring and affection are done, which comes back to the theory of abuse in recent relationships. It fits well with the time he's had boyfriends, and as I've said, the relationships I've known about always seemed slightly 'strange' in some way I could never put my finger on.

His liking for alcohol was originally to help him get over his acute shyness, but as he got older he seemed to have mostly conquered it.

Hopefully at some point later this year I can finally get to the bottom of this. If/when I do I'll be sure to remember to post a finale to this thread

I'm getting the sense that your friend is in pretty hard times, and his method of escape is through the bottle and sex. Sex is pleasurable, the bottle helps people, for a while at least, to not care about whatever it is that's got them down. If they get drunk enough, they wont remember the part where theyre totally miserable...

I think your friend is in need of something of a re-boot... to move to a new place and start over... that would, hopefully, allow him to put behind him whatever is bothering him... at least enough that he can become more of a functional person.

That's true, but a person can't get away from his problems if he takes them with him.

This is typically the age at which major mental illnesses start to show themselves. I'll skip all the background cause I'm not looking for pity and that's what this usually brings on.

I had been doing things I'm not proud of including very dangerous drugs, alcohol and although I wasn't aware of it at the time, way too much unsafe sex; always while under the influence of some mind altering substance all through my teens. Still, I was very social and lots of fun to be around. I was even a good student. Honors in mathematics. Editor of the school newspaper.

When I hit my early 20's major psychosis reared it's ugly head. I hated myself. My whole personality changed. I went from being a fun and outgoing person to one who was only looking to score some drugs and sex to escape my mental torment. If you couldn't provide both I wasn't interested.

It took two years of in-patient rehab to get me under control. I've been clean and sober for many decades now.

I found this thread after replying to your most recent PM and then looking at your profile. I had to comment. It's late, I'm tired and I know I'm rambling. I'm sorry. I just hope I'm making sense.

My point is you should consider that my scenario sounds a lot like your friend's scenario. This all may be due to some form of a major mental illness taking a firm grip on him at the age when this typically happens.

If this is the case he needs medication and therapy to get himself under control. Nothing else that's good will happen until then. And lots worse things could happen if he doesn't get the treatment he needs. In my case a failed suicide attempt forced me into getting treatment.

As a loyal friend it should be your job to make sure his family is aware of this possibility and, if necessary, force him into rehab; and more importantly get the medical treatment he needs.

You raise another good possibility - I'm so glad I asked for viewpoints

My immediate reaction is to think it's not 'that serious' but then on consideration I know virtually nothing for sure and as I've not seen him in-the-flesh for over a year a lot could have changed.

If I could contact his younger brother I'd subtley feel him out on how he thought his brother is doing but as I said I've got no way to contact him now. Not being in the UK makes it much more difficult too - I can't just call round to the house (if his family still live in the same one I visited).

I'll try to get my friend to talk to me again next week if he's got over this ignoring-me thing. Overall though, if he chooses to ignore me there's not a lot I can do except let him get on with it and be around when he finally wants to talk to me.

Well, tonight he messaged me and we managed a short conversation. Here's a part of it that on the face of it seems illuminating:



The way that "I am" came over made me feel it was very defensive and reactionary.

I guess we all see different things in a conversation. His unabashed reference to being a slag -- regardless of whether you choose to use the modern or more traditional meaning -- bothered me more than the defensive way in which he stated he was happy.

I stand by my gut reaction of last night. This young man needs help. I know you're not in a position to easily get it for him. I hope you will continue to try as best you can.

In the U.K. the use of 'slag' is more common and is sometimes used as an inverted form of appreciation, but yes, in this case he was obviously using it in a demeaning manner.
In that sentence I thought the more revealing part was the "...if u must know...". It suggests he's not entirely happy/proud of the circumstances he finds himself in and expects me/others to disapprove.

In another part of the conversation where he was talking about how bad the Nottingham gay scene has become I half-jokingly suggested he should come over to Spain. He replied, "I couldn't because all my mates are here" and that made me think they're not that good mates and might be part of the reason he's in his current situation.

The conversation as a whole did have a hint of a 'self-destruct' tone to it, although me being hyper-sensitive to it at the moment it is possible I read things into it that aren't there.

If you're right about that sentence then perhaps there's still a chance you can help him just by keeping in touch with him. I like how you're not judgmental and that's your avenue to help him without offending him. It might take time, but if you really want to help him, and this is the only way you can do so from your current location, then please continue to try engaging him in conversation. Even a little bit of chatting might eventually lead to him feeling like he can trust you enough to be honest with you. No doubt this will take commitment on your part, and with all you've got going on in your life right now I hope you can find the time to stay in touch with GN.

Yeah, that's a given.

I'm currently chatting with another close friend, 'T', about GN. 'T' knows GN a little bit but has never been close friends. He just told me that he remembers possibly as much as a year ago deleting GN from his MSN contact list because GN messaged asking for sex and then didn't know who he was talking to.

He's going to add GN back and we'll see if anything comes of any conversations they might have.