Does all of this propaganda dealing with treatment of animals meant to be consumed as food seem a little silly to anyone else?

Okay okay okay, I promise, I'm not heartless or anything, but even I have to see the practicality here as opposed to the "aw it's a fuzzy wittle amuhnal, I wanna keeps it!". You are eating them. EATING. That means you are munching on these animals. Given the fact that you are already intending for them to be FOOD, is anything else you do to them in the process really all that terrible?

Now, blatant mistreatment of animals is wrong. But it's not like these people who produce our food are just beating and hurting and torturing these animals with no logical purpose in what they do. They're making our food, that's all. Would it really make it any better if you'd kept the animals as pets before you ate them? Um, no, so why make such a big deal of it?

Hey, I'll admit that they could probably be a bit nicer to the animals. Then we would all pay more for them, though, and I just don't see the point of making these animals damn near into pets before you send them off to the slaughterhouse.

Oh, and I'm not giving up my hamburgers and fried chicken, so you won't persuade me to be a veg-head, haha.

Tell me what you guys think.

I have been eating meat for as long as I can remember... Never found anything wrong in it..

.......I love my lamb, steak, chicken and fish and I won't give it up. To each his own!

I love animals... with A-1 sauce.

Granted: some people are cruel to animals raised for food like cows and chickens. Some people are cruel to dogs and cats. There is a humane way to raise, care for and dare I say slaughter food animals and if the farmers can't be bothered or are sick-o enough to get off on the pain inflicted, they need to be out of the business and on a shrinks sofa. People who would do that to animals, their next stop is people.

I second that!

But now that you mention it, I do feel a little bad about eating an animal....but I'm sure the feeling will pass as soon as dinner approaches.

I guess it depends on the culture? Like, we don't eat cats or dogs or hamsters because they're our domestic pets. But we eat cows and fish and chickens without any problems. In other countries, I'm sure some of the animals are reversed, so it all depends.

I'm not sure where I was going with that...I might be hungry...

Wow so far 100% see no problem with eating meat. The way I see it, if you want to be a vegan that's fine. We're all entitled to make our own personal choices. As for me, I enjoyed meat but I'm not about to go hunting. I want a certain level of detachment from the whole process.

These people have been putting emphasis on showing people how graphic factory farming can be. They keep these animals in very confined spaces, and do some other less than nice things, but the reason they do this is in order to reduce costs and maximize efficiency; otherwise our food would cost a LOT more.

I lived on a quail farm for a long time when I was a kid. We owned one, and I helped out with it a good many times. Sorry, but when someone wanted quail cleaned and dressed... well... if you hadn't ever seen it before, you might freak out a little. Basically what happens is...

1.) Quail/pheasants are kept (at least on our farm) in a flight pen, meaning that while they are pretty crowded, the ceiling of the pen is high enough for them to fly. The reason for that is because a lot of people buy them to hunt them; it's not fun hunting quail that can't fly.
2.) We go in with nets and catch however many we need.
3.) You take one of those really heavy duty pairs of kitchen shears, and then cut the quail/pheasant's head off in one quick motion. Sounds awful, I know, but it's by far the most humane and fast way to kill them. And yes, they do freak out when you do this, so yet again, if you've never done it before, then you'd freak probably.
4.) Immediately after the head comes off, you toss 'em into a big steaming vat of water. They make special containers that keep the water heated. This helps to loosen the feathers.
5.) Ya pluck 'em. Hehe, yeah, but nowadays they make those machines that have like a bunch of rubber fingers that spin nice and quick, and you just let those yank all the feathers for you.
6.) You clean them. This means removing organs/feet/etc.
7.) You now have a quite tasty little birdy.


See, the thing is, you're going to be killing the animal... so I don't really see how you can call the practice of maximizing efficiency, minimizing cost, and making the whole process as easy and fast as possible "cruel". You could maybe even go so far as gruesome, but not really cruel.

Btw, any of you who haven't had quail, you should try it sometime. I don't like pheasants, they have a gamey and kinda weird taste, but bobwhite quail are REALLY good.

Eww, TMI dude.

I could really go for a steak now, yummo indeed.

I could not live without meat. If I go too long without eating meat, I feel sick. I do not even know how vegans survive.

It's all about what you are, or get, accustomed to Tim. I know lots of vegans who are much healthier than I am. It's just a mattter of getting the right mix of proteins and other stuff. But I'm with you... a day without a cheeseburger is like a day without sunshine; boring and depressing!

......Thanks, other than Fish and an occassionL Rattlesnake, I've never "cleaned" an animal. That's why I pay other people to do it for me

Snakes are yum!!

I agree. Let's work on Rose to fix me some snake when I go see her. She's doesn't wanna do that.

Well, I'll pass on the snake. I cannot even stand to look at snakes. They give me the creeps!

There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures...right next to the mashed potatoes.

In all seriousness though, Humans were designed to be omnivores. I'd going to go ahead and assume that wasn't an accident...

Aren't we a bunch of cannibals here? A 100% for NO!!

Yaay!! w00t!!

......Well it's a given I like meat!

Being a farmboy myself I agree totally with Razor.

I think it might do people some good if at some point in their early life they had to be intensively involved in rearing and slaughtering their own animals, and growing and harvesting their own vegatables and fruits. They might learn to value food a lot more highly than they do - after all, alongside water it's something they can't live without. I get very annoyed seeing the dire economic struggles of farmers and food valued so low compared to other non-essential items.
As at present with wheat, it only needs a poor harvest season or two and rising demand from places like China, and suddenly the price doubles and many areas of the world are going to see famine conditions because supplies are too expensive or just not available.

I remember once a friend (girl) of mine was visiting for a few days and I asked her if she wanted chips (fries) for dinner. She said yes so I fetched a bag of potatoes and began peeling them. She was mystified and wanted to know what I was doing. I said, "making chips".

It turns out she didn't know chips were made from potatoes - she thought they somehow grew fully-formed

It's not a surprise to me that a bunch of Gay men prefer eating 'meat'

Uh, how about carnivores? I do object to human under most circumstances.

I like my meat. I would prefer my meat providers not to be cruel and inhumane, but not at the price of, well, rising prices. I think animal lovers of this sort can first worry about cruel and inhumane treatment of other humans in certain parts of the world. However, if gruesome treatment of future food reduces the quality of food (e.g. feeding pigs other pigs increasing risk of disease), then yes, I would on the animal rights bandwagon for that cause.

I never go a day without eating meat... unless I forget to eat that day... which has happened before.


I wasn't gonna say it lmfao.

I think we all LOVE that kind of meat.

This is the real problem.

This creates economic pressures on the supply chain that ends up with the farmers making so little profit that they have to continually look for cheaper ways to rear their livestock; doing it faster and with less human intervention or capital costs. That leads to cheap low quality feeds, stress in the animals due to forced growth, less time to notice ill health, and less room for the animals.

Good quality meat comes from animals allowed to grow at their own rate in natural surroundings with little stress. It is possible to taste the difference, too. Having grown up around chemical-based and intensive agricultural and seen what damage it does to the land and animals I'm a big proponent of natural farming, organic methods, and increased prices.

It's ironic that it's the so-called civilised economically affluent people that force prices down and don't value food.
In places where food isn't seen as a low-value commodity it is highly valued and people are prepared to allocate a much larger percentage of their per-capita income to it.

I don't mind eating meat and I think the fact that people are throwing a hissy fit about how the food animals are treated is funny. Since most of them still eat the meat even as they protest the treatment.

yeah i always thought i had these sharper teeth near the front for a reason.

If chickens and turkey didn't exist I'd be a vegetarian. I just don't like eating anything else as it's a taste issue with me and I'm a picky eater (although, I'll try anything once if it's bbq'd)

It's easy to say it's not wrong when you've been subject to eating meat in your lifetime. It's also easy to say no when most people don't see what goes into the steps from a live animal to the plate at home... I know I don't really want to see the steps myself, but living in Kentucky I have seen a chicken meet his end once and it didn't phase me at all. Definitely not something I'd work on doing as a practice though, even if my neighbor's chickens drive me insane daily when they fly over our fence and scratch around my flowers.. so watching a few of those killed for dinner would be justified.

Well, whaddya know, I broke the "everyone votes no" thing. I opted for yes, if it's the factory farmed deal.

I am a vegetarian, but I've always maintained that while animal rights and their ethical treatment has been a part of that the main reason is that I simply don't particularly like very many meats. I like some namely most types of boneless chicken and seafood almost any way I can get it, but I've had a lot of different meats in my lifetime ranging from very fancy to very simple and I can safely say with the exception of poultry and seafood I've almost unilaterally be much more interested in whatever vegetable/bread/side dish came with the meal.

So, it while it would be easier to still not be a vegetarian and eat the chicken or whatever on the rare occasions I wanted it - and indeed this is what I did for years, eating meat maybe 2 or 3 times a week - I ultimately decided that I'd feel better about the whole thing swearing off it completely, and it just wasn't a very big sacrifice for me to make.

I really, completely, and utterly don't care what other people are doing on this front if they're simply consumers. I would never sit around ranting at someone to put down the roast and back away from the sandwich. In many ways it's sort of like my approach to religion. Do whatever works for you dude. I've got my own ideas and opinions, and I'll tell you about them if you ask, but I'm just going to mind my own business.

Anyway since you did ask:






I'm sorry, but personally I completely and thoroughly disagree, and frankly I do find those notions pretty *searches for a nicer synonym* distasteful, I'm going to go with "distasteful".

Cost? Money? Geez! Are those really things that are more important than the suffering, misery, and death of another living being?


Exactly, put away your ipods and cell phones before you start bitching to me about prices (and I'm NOT directing these comments to Jamie or Corvus, I mean the argument in general). It's a viable concern if you're living in poverty, but proportionally very few Americans and other 1st world citizens are. Oh they might classify according to the way their country evaluates it, but if they do have things beyond the basics in food, water, and shelter, it's not the way I'm defining "poverty" in this case.

As I said, I'm not going to rant at people or try to convince them one way or the other. Indeed I don't for a minute think vegetarianism would be the right choice for the majority of people. But making weak justifications about "cost" while you're plunking down 4 bucks for coffee, paying for high speed internet, and wearing new clothes is just....well now I can't find a "nice synonym" so I'll just stop there.

Anyway, I spent a considerable amount of time on a farm myself in my childhood, both beef and grain, and it's very true that people just don't appreciate farmers and their commodities. All we're concerned about is lower prices, lower prices, lower prices, and we don't care if that effectively results in the closing of small farms and the "trimming off of the fat" at larger ones.

In a few generations I doubt they'll be very many farms left in the US at all. We'll be ever importing even more of our food. And actually, I'm not sure if I even consider this a uniformly bad thing. I just hope no one is surprised.


Anyway, on a separate note, I have a very pragmatic view about what's right and what's wrong regarding this, and much of it depends on the specific animal. Not all animals are created equally. For example pigs are highly intelligent and personally I'm honestly not comfortable consuming them under any circumstances (although fortunately I never liked pork, in fact I've always thought it to be the least palatable meat). On the opposite end of the spectrum I have virtually no reservations - beyond the most basic respect of life - when it comes to shrimp and other shellfish. They're extremely primitive and stupid and it's unlikely they even have a system of pain and pleasure that humans and other mammals can even identify with. All the other animals fall somewhere between those two polls as far as I'm concerned and I expect their treatment to be comparable to their position on this spectrum.


Yeah, I watch my protein and nutritional intake a lot better than I did before I was a vegetarian and I have a lot more energy, and I'm sick much less often. As I said, this won't work for all, or even most, people, but it works for me.

Anyway, I realize that this post might come across as a bit overly vitriolic, and I especially apologize to Jamie and Corvus if it seemed as though I was too harsh regarding them. It's just I do very much disagree with those ideas and arguments regarding cost. However, I'm always pleased to hear from these two. In fact they're honestly two of my favourite posters, and I certainly spend a great deal more time sitting in awe at their insightful, intelligent posts than I do disagreeing with them (indeed it's remarkably rare that I disagree with either's thoughts on a given subject).

Take care all and have a great day

Kevin

Hey, look at how vegetables are treated! Genetically altered. Forced to live in close confines. Sprayed with pesticides. Ripped from the ground with mean looking machines, tortured as they're processed by all sorts of other machines. It's all so inhuman and inhumane. Is there really such a big difference between how we treat cows and how we treat potatoes?

I happen to hate pesticides. I think I should join the organic craze.

I don't want to kill the cute snake though. It'll make me think of my friends snake and you can't do that here any more, even if you buy it from a store.
Anyways, I would like to see most places get better at keeping their animals, but most places that farm animals for the meat actually take pretty good care of the animals.

Maybe so. But it's the few, like KFC, that give everyone else a bad name. I saw a documentary on how their chickens are treated. Since then I've never gone to KFC.

I won't eat veal cause I 've seen how veal calves are treated. It gives me the shivers. Same thing with geese...no more goose liver pate for me.

I can't stand KFC. If I want fried chicken that I don't want to cook, I'll go somewhere else. There's plenty of small resturants around here.
Anyways, I'll stick with my duck, other game birds (besides geese), steak, pork, ham and hamburger. I don't like veal and I don't like goose. It doesn't taste right to me.

See, my problem is I grew up on KFC and also happen to love foie gras and veal. But my ethical considerations far outweigh my desire to consume those things.

I know how you feel. It's just...ugh.

There's also a big difference between a potato and a cow. They don't deserve or warrant the same treatment. That's what I was trying to get at when I pointed out that there was a very big difference between what I find acceptable treatment of pigs and shellfish, vegetables and plants would be considerably below shellfish on that scale.

When it comes to how to treat living things I think one ought to consider such things as their degree of sentience, emotion, and sensation. The potato doesn't get scared, it doesn't hurt, and it isn't sitting there thinking about it's fate. A cow definitely gets alarmed, definitely feels pain, and there's really no telling what's going on in their brains. A pig, or dolphin or something would take all the cow stuff to a higher level, and a human being would presumably take it to the highest. I just think we ought to try to act accordingly.

-Kevin

I am not picking at nits here. Sorry for the potentially annoying euphemism. I'm serious.

Clearly you've never listened to, or at least appreciated "The Trees" from the Hemisphere's album by Rush.

I remain unconvinced, due to a lack of sufficient empirical evidence, that plants do not feel emotions. If they do it probably won't be at as high a level as cows, pigs and porpoises. But hey, feelings are feelings, right?

I absolutely don't mind eating meat,,, probably because if I did, well I wouldn't be eating much,, but that's another story,,, ,,,, Tho, I would say, when it comes about how those animals are treated before they go by the chopper, that I have a "don't ask, don't tell" attitude...

Tho I gotta say that I wouldn't eat *goat* meat,

I don't think I would eat goat meat either, though I hear their cheese can be good. There are probably some meats in which you would rather not know how they are made. I will leave it at that.

.......I don't know, but I hear bar-b-qued goat is quite good!

Some might say the same about scrambled eggs and brains, but I am not trying it.

I love goat meat...no offence to the resident goat, but here, in India, we have goat's meat quite often...

I thought animals were sacred in India. I know you cows. I respect the religion, but I do not understand it.

Yes, Hindus worship cows. It is considered a sacred animal and that is why Hindus do not eat beef. Most of the Sikhs, like me, also do not eat beef. Muslims do not eat pork.

But goat, everyone enjoys here. (well, almost everyone.)

........Not to shock you but I have eaten dog, cat and monkey also. I did not like the cat

I have eaten sharks, prawns, crabs, shellfish, snakes, rabbits, bluebulls, Grey Francolin, quails, chickens, pork, beef (only once), shrimps and not to mention different varieties of fish.... Phew!

I do not know if I could eat goats. I happen to love beef and pork though. I don't think I could live in India.

........I also don't eat pork, but the goat is just a relative of the lamb and I love lamb

You'd be surprised to see the number of vegetarians here. All Brahmin Hindus are vegetarians, for example. All Gursikhs and Naamdhaari Sikhs are vegetarians... to name a few...

And what about frog legs? People eat that too...

Let me not go into what tribals eat!! I have seen a man eat a cockroach!!

That is gross! I hate roaches, and I will never eat frog legs. I do not care if my mom thinks they are good. The thought makes me want to hurl.