Hi all,

Just thought I'd get your opinions on something.

I just got home from Starbucks. While there I had a lovely time flirting with the guy behind the counter. Anyway, after I got my drink I took a seat and began reading. A little while later the guy came to clean up my section of the store and started chatting with me again. We continued flirting. Next, he asks what I had planned for this weekend.

I'm actually just getting over being sick, so apart from church tomorrow and my regular Sunday socializing with my gay church friends (which I do every week) I don't have plans (which also happens to be the way I wanted it), so I simply answered that I planned to have a nice quiet, relaxing weekend. So then he says, "oh yeah, me too. I'm off the next couple of days and I don't have plans. Just thought I'd relax or something."

At that point, based on the way he was saying it, I could tell that he wanted me to ask him out. I mean it was a logical progression from the flirting and we'd just established that we were both free. However, I did not ask him out.

I was really only interested in a little casual flirting. Also, while I was having a nice time chatting with him, I wasn't really that interested to begin with. Primarily though, I'm just not interested in seeing anyone right now.

So I just casually changed the subject and quit flirting.


Anyway my question is: Was what I did wrong? Was I obligated to ask him out at that point? Should I have avoided flirting in the first place knowing that I didn't intend for anything to come of it?

thoughts and opinions?

-Kevin

Nah. If you'd asked him out despite not being interested, that would've been mean. But a little innocent flirting doesn't make you a jerk. It just makes you... someone who likes to keep your skills sharp. (Take it from a woman; we do that kind of thing all the time... )

Kevin, flirting doesn't necessarily express a genuine interest. You never have an obligation to ask a guy out just because you flirted with him. That would mean a whole lot of trouble for most of us, especially those of use who are shameless flirts, not that I have ever been known to flirt shamelessly.

Thanks guys


As it happens I have asked guys out simply because I felt like it would have been rude not to. It's always ultimately gotten me into more trouble, so I think you're right.

Kevin, it's alright to flirt. Flirting is innocent and fun and really doesn't show any higher level of interest. Things do progress from flirting, but like every other conversation it can end with nothing further taking place.

If I went out with every guy I ever flirted with.. well... there wouldn't be nice things said about me.. haha.

While you are under no obligation to to ask anyone out, I don't think you should have flirted with him if you weren't interested.

You were being a tease and you probably made the guy feel bad.

Well I definitely didn't mean to do that


It seemed like he was having fun too. I do take your point though

Kevin, don't beat yourself up. If your intention was to hurt him, you wouldn't have started this thread. He was flirting in his own right, knowing full well that he may or may not get what he wants. Things are not always cut and dry. Chances are he's not thinking about it too much. Besides, you can always go back there and make sure he's okay. He may have just figured you're a natural flirt and probably isn't hurt or anything. I mean, if he were the type that "fell in love" that fast, you'd have a stalker by now. And Vic... don't try to make Kevin feel anymore guilty than he already feels.

..................Come one Kevin!!! You of all people, know very well that flirting does not have to lead anywhere else other than flirting!! S_it!! 10 % of 10%??

Kevin, why do you feel that it had to be you who asked him out? He left the option up to you, and you acted appropriately. If he really wanted to go out with you, he would have asked you out. I think he was open to the idea of going out with you, but wasn't sure if you were. The way he did it put the ball in your court and you acted the way you wanted to. He may have been disappointed, but you weren't a jerk.

Okay, this is just my personal opinion and not a criticism of Kevin, whom I like & respect...

I believe that flirting when you don't even have the possibility of a potential interest in the other person is very wrong and that it can be very cruel to send out deliberately deceptive signals. Basically, it's like lying to someone for fun and just a different way of pulling a 'practical joke' on someone.

It's quite possible that the person on the receiving end of this 'joke' may have their feelings crushed when they realise you were not actually interested and just playing mind games with them. Yes, you can say it was obviously not serious. You can blame the victim for not having a sense of humour or for not being socially aware enough to realise it was just a game. But aren't they the same sort of excuses that all practical jokers give to defend their cruelty?

Kit

Or, in Kevin's case may have gotten more than he expected.

Kevin asked a question and I replied honestly.

So Tim... if someone posted a picture of themselves, something really tight, that pinched at their body and made them look like the Michelin Man, and asked the question 'Does this outfit make me look fat?'

How would you respond?

...................I disagree, they were both flirting, personally I have always thought flirting was a high form of flattery, and if anything it would make my day. If the 'other' person were to take offense, why engage?

In the particular case Kevin described, yes, they were apparently both flirting. However, my stated opinion was of flirting in general, not of that particular case.

Usually one person starts the 'flirt', or has the first flirt, or however one describes it, as must be rare for two people to start any behaviour simultaneously. If the other person takes offence then presumably they won't flirt back, but they are already offended, so what do you expect them to do? Punch the offender?

Flirting can be a good way of showing interest without getting too serious. If people flirt when they have no interest then how do you know when they are interested?

People who flirt without being interested not only risk hurting the people they are misleading but effectively take away, or at least debase, a means by which genuine person might show interest. So the genune person has to wonder how to indicate an interest without flirting?

You say you are flattered if people flirt with you. Do you always assume they are not genuinely interested, or that they are? If you assume they aren't genuine then there is no reason to feel flattered because they are effectively lying to you. If you assume they are genuine and you flirt back at them when you aren't genuine then you risk hurting their feelings.

Before you play mind games by flirting with people you should make sure that the other person knows the rules of the game. That's why I think that, unless you are genuinely interested, it is bad to flirt with people you don't know well. Maybe your friends can tell that you're just playing, but how can a stranger tell?

Playing mind games, like playing practical jokes, can be fun for the people doing it, but it can be hurtful for the person on the receiving end.

Kit

.......Actually, it would be rare for me to be the one that initiates any flirting. Freindly bantering is more my par, I'm guessing you have been on the recieving end of flirtation and was hurt by it. Sorry if that happened to you. I understand your position on this and respect it, but how will you ever know if someone is being serious if you reject anothers advances forehandedly?

Well, I'm definitely more like one of the people who feels that being flirted with is flattering. However, I'm very glad that Vic and Kit were honest with me, and I think it's definitely the case that not everyone is the same and what is good for one person may not be good for another. I think that's one of the things that makes life so complicated. If I randomly walked into a room and started flirting with someone who enjoyed it, then we can both walk away happier and without any hurt feelings. If I randomly walked into a room and flirted with someone who took it as dishonest then that person may end up feeling disappointed or hurt and I'll end up feeling guilty. So in one scenario everyone wins, in the other no one does. I really have no idea which scenario I lived through last night.

I'm sure he is over it, and even if he didn't enjoy it I doubt it was a major disappointment. I would also assume that rather than thinking I was playing mind games with him he would have concluded that I was too shy to initiate the asking out or that he had misread my signals, or that I hadn't picked up on his. Those would be the sorts of things I would assume in his place....but then as we've established everyone's different so I guess it's hard to say.

I do know that I'm perhaps a bit too flirtatious because while the majority of the time nothing bad comes of it and everyone ends happy, I have occasionally gotten myself into situations in which the person became more serious and seemed to have inferred a stronger meaning than was meant. This has been the minority of my experiences with flirting, but it does trouble me when it occurs, so I probably need to learn to pick up on those cues and back it off sooner before it gets to that level...or indeed not partake at all if there's a chance of a major miscommunication.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback guys

-Kevin

You don't HAVE to ask out every guy you flirt mutually with. You had an interest in him, but not enough to go on a date. Besides, if he really wanted to go out with you then he should have asked YOU, ya big jerk! lol j/k

........i could not have said it better!!

You're never obligated to do anything no matter what anyone else wants you to do. Also, you probably made his day 'cause he had a sexy man like you flirting with him. It was a good deed.

Aww

Thanks Jamie!

What a depressing world we'd have if people didn't flirt unless they were seriously interested in someone.

Someone here said that it's usually one person initiating the flirting, and that's true, but usually the first smile (or whatever it is) is very open to interpretation so one has to respond for the flirting to go on. So, it takes two to tango. And if a guy (or girl) behind the counter in any shop were flirting with me, I'd definitely assume that it was nothing serious until proven otherwise.

There was a guy selling strawberries close to where I live last summer, and I think he flirted with basically every customer he had -- even the old, decrepit ladies of about 95 -- and when he did that he made you feel so good even though you knew he couldn't possibly fancy you. And it was nice to see the ladies going home with their rollators, happy and smiling and looking only 85.

Flirting is just a mild form of sexual harrassment. It puts pressure on the recipient to respond positively or be thought of as a killjoy.

What a depressing world we'd have if we couldn't sexually harrass people! It's all just a bit of fun. They don't have to respond, and in any case, we're not really serious about it it, so even if they do respond we'd just reject them.

It doesn't matter who we hurt as long as we don't have to live in a depressing world!

Yeah. Right.

Kit

Um, I don't really view a smile and a wink of the eye as something explicitly sexual, and certainly not as harrassment. And I would never take offence if someone didn't respond to my smiling at them... In my experience flirting was usually meant as something genuinely nice, such as the example I gave.

Three definitions of flirting:
To make playfully romantic or sexual overtures
to court triflingly or act amorously without serious intentions
playful behavior intended to arouse sexual interest

To me, those definitions imply something sexual. I'm not sure exactly how overt it is. Probably not as overt as 'fancy a shag?'. How overt does it have to be before it becomes inappropriate? Or goes on to become harrassment? Certainly, for me it is inappropriate if a stranger behaves that way toward me.

That, however, wasn't the real point of my previous post, and it appears that my attempts at subtle satire were a miserable failure. So I guess I should be blunt. My real point was that the decision as to the acceptability of a certain behaviour should not be made based on whether or not some people might feel the world would be depressing without that behaviour.

Thus, I'm sure that some people would find the world less depressing if they could sexually harrass people whenever they want to. Personally, I think that the world would be less depressing if I could just take money from people who had more than I had.

So, to put it bluntly, saying that the world would be more depressing without flirting has neither practical nor moral validity.

Kit

Well, personally speaking I definitely agree more with Procyon on these recent points. I think flirting and sexual harassment are two very different things in terms of the behaviour done.

Apart from that, I honestly think people are a tad too quick to label something 'sexual harassment' these days. Obviously I'm very much against sexual harassment, but I think one of the key aspects of sexual harassment is that it must be persistent or repeated unwanted sexual behaviour. Some things are clearly inappropriate in polite society and I'm not advocating going back to the days when a boss could get away with slapping his secretary on the behind as he walked by. However, in the majority of cases in which people are on a more or less even playing field OR when the behaviour isn't extremely explicit I don't think any harm has been done by a small unwanted advance and I think the person has the right and power to simply say 'no thanks' and move on with their life. If at that point the advances don't stop then that's sexual harassment, but I think in most cases before you can label something sexual harassment the 'victim' must explicitly try to stop the behaviour.

I realize that for some people bluntly saying no is more difficult than for others, but again unless the behaviour is extremely 'out there' and very inappropriate or unless there's a serious difference in power I still think they have the responsibility to try to stop the behaviour before they go around crying sexual harassment.

Just my opinion though

Take care all,
Kevin

Before my employer, a County, decided to start doing their own educational things county wide, the facility I work at had this as their definition for sexual harassment, "as perceived by a normal person."

If A told B a dirty joke and C overheard it and didn't like it, then C could perceive that as harassment.

I think that that too should have been under 'normal' and reasonable circumstances.

If person A told person B a dirty joke about person C then that would be inappropriate. If person A told person B a dirty joke in such a way that purposely attracted person C's attention or would otherwise have been reasonably expected to be overheard by person C, then that too might have been inappropriate.

On the other hand if person A were having a quiet, private conversation with person B and person C was going out of their way to eavesdrop then that definitely was not sexual harrassment.

Under more reasonable, middle circumstances in which person A and person B are having a normal conversation, neither trying to be overheard by others or trying to avoid being overheard and a dirty joke was told, well I still think that if person C was offended the primary burden was on person C to say 'I find that offensive. Would you please refrain from making such remarks in my presence?' And once again, if from then on person A and person B are quiet in their conversations then I think it's still their business what they talk about it and person C has no business deliberately eavesdropping in an attempt to become offended.



Basically, with all human interaction I think that ideally people should always go out of their way to both avoid saying or doing anything which might be remotely offensive to others AND to go out of their way to avoid being offended by others.

Last night my neighbours were having a loud argument at about 3am AND I heard them swearing and even saying the F work (not the one that rhymes with 'duck' but the one that with 'maggot'). Now I could easily have been offended by this, but I was not.

As it happened I was awake anyway and not trying to go to sleep, and I feel that their discussion, however loud, was their business and not mine. They weren't swearing at me or calling me names, indeed I think there's virtually no chance whatsoever that I (or any of our other neighbours) even entered their thoughts. So I went out of my way to not be offended by their behaviour. But really I wasn't inconvenienced. All I had to do was tune them out and go on about my business.

That said, I think their behaviour from their own perspective should been considered inappropriate. Some people are offended by loud, vulgar arguments in the early morning. They were clearly not going out of their way to not be offensive to others.

Hmm, this is a difficult question. I have been in situations where I have felt flattered, or I mean charmed by people who've made me feel very good. Other situations have left me feeling upset or uncomfortable, targeted and definitly sexually harrased. You're right about being able to say no and them listen and still appear to respect you as making a big difference. I think it was the style and culture differences, and possibly the intent behind the 'flirting', or maybe the setting. I'm going to have to think about why they've left me feeling so differently in more detail. But I wouldnt want to do away with flirting altogther. Maybe I'm labelling something as flirting that isn't. well, my gran made me think maybe the behaviour was 'flirting' when I hadnt classed it as. basically I don't like being a sex object, but I do like someone making me feel special or giving me positive attention for 'me'. maybe i haven't learnt how to take a compliment or maybe Im too cynical, or maybe Im prudish about sex. an example of a setting I'm thinking of (not my real situations) is in an office where its all male and dealing with friendly flirting, it's not easy to tell everyone to back off, some people may revel in it, but I wouldnt, maybe you've experienced something like this with unwanted female flirting. maybe I just have a bad attitude, I don't think it has helped me as I do think I am way too defensive sometimes and it is stopping me from getting to know people who I may have really gotten to like and even had a relationship with. It could be I had a badd experience when young and its affected my normal appreciation of it. Anyway I'll think about it more.

celia

Interesting points, Celia!

I'm not sure that I have experienced that much unwanted attention from females. I've been flirted with by females and not been interested in anything more with them, but off-hand I can't recall many instances in which that made me very uncomfortable or caused major problems. One of the most forward examples I can recall was once in my teens, before I came out, when a girl asked 'do you have a girlfriend?' I responded that I did not, to which she grinned, touched my arm and asked, "Do you want one?"

That was a bit forward, but I was still flattered and after carefully extracting myself from the situation I was not upset by it.

Actually, I've certainly received much more forward, unwanted attention from other gay males than I ever have from straight females. I've been groped, honked at, propositioned, and all manner of other very blunt advances. But while I consider that behaviour inappropriate, it sort of goes back to my statement about not taking offense just for the sake of being offended. I could be insulted that the guys thought I was a just a piece of meat to prod at, but I'd rather take it as a compliment that they thought I was attractive and wanted to go home with me, then just say 'no thanks' and go on about my business if I'm not interested.

Also, while I certainly don't believe in 'blaming the victim' it sort of does go back to the situation into which you put yourself. These sorts of things have usually happened to me in crowded clubs, or nighttime sidewalks in the sexualized gay district and I've usually been wearing tight, revealing, flashy, or otherwise provocative clothing and probably generally conducting myself in a manner which invited such behaviour. So I think that being honked at and receiving leers and suggestive comments sort of comes with the territory and if I were going to be offended by that I shouldn't place myself in those situations or at the least I should dress conservatively and carry myself in a more closed off manner.

Of course I've usually been with friends with this has happened, I'm generally confident in my ability to take care of myself, I haven't been incapacitated when such things have occurred, and I haven't gone into private, dangerous areas. So generally I haven't felt 'threatened' by this behaviour even if I haven't always welcomed it.

Sigh, I don't know why I've felt threatened. The first time was in Turkey when I was about 13/14 and the men in the street were 'flirting', supposedly being playful, but actually very suggestive, and disrespectful. They did it after we walked past their stalls and wouldnt stop to look. There didnt seem to be any way to stop it, and it was all very new. they were only nice, decent, when you were buying something, and so I became very wary and skeptical. It was repeated in Egypt a few years later, I was dressed fairly conserevatively but alot of men would still leer. It made me doubt or mistrust what even nice men were thinking when I was talking to them. I remember chatting to a young guy in a shop in my hotel, he was non-threatening, no bartering required so I was safe to just look and he seemed genuinely nice, I suppose was charming, no I mean basically a normal conversation. Aftere 5 mins he then became touchy. It just left me with the impression again that I couldnt trust any of them to not be thinking of anything but one thing when a white girl was there and being friendly or polite was like saying yes, you have permission.

however I felt very differently the last time I went travelling. we arrived in a new city and went to a guesthouse, the owner who didnt speak english walked us to the cashpoint, their equally older friend tagged along (I immediatley knew what was coming) he began to try to flirt, which I kind of played ingnorant to as I knew the other 2 girls if they knew what was happening would feel threatened since we were in a secluded street initially. Not too much later when it was obvious what he was hinting at I shook my head no and was clear I didnt want to, they backed off straight away. later i told the girls who were oblivious and said I hadnt felt threatened at all to which they couldnt understand. maybe it was I understood that they would at least try since we were from out of town, and they listened when I said no and continued as normal. or maybe its Im older. I do accept flirting in a club in the uk and am fine with it. maybe its just the out of place settings I don't like. however I didnt really class that as flirting either, simply asking for sex. I think it is a mental thing I have. an inferiority complex or something.

anyway, ... Im sounding pathetic.

celia

I don't think I'm taking offense for the sake of being offended. I'm not trying to be all anti-flirting or men but it can make me uncomfortable which is why I don't like it. Also I think it goes deeper than taking it as a compliment sometimes. I'm thinking more about power relations. but, I could be thinking too much into it. I suppose Im saying it makes me feel like im not an equal, or in say an office it would, but I suppose taking it as a compliment would balance that out. maybe im relating flirting, or this type of flirting to what a friend said to me once, its from the complete extreme, she was raped, and told me it was more about power and control than attractiveness, so I suppose Im doubting people's reasons.

okay I have issues.

celia

No, I definitely see your point


Actually though, for me, most of the time when I'm flirted with I feel like I'm in control.

Maybe its because I feel like I'm having to battle against something to just do something rather than enoying it for what it is, say walk down a street in peace, or do a task in an office, or whatever it is that the inappropriate flirting interupts. and they're using sexuality to do this, something I can't really control (without changing my personality). I know I have a problem about it as its not going to stop and I need to adjust to it. I do need to flip my attitude and I'll likely feel more in control, or even use it to my advantage more.

So you think that the decision as to the acceptability of a certain behaviour should be made based on whether or not some people might feel the world would be depressing without that behaviour?

Also, Procyon wrote:
"There was a guy selling strawberries close to where I live last summer, and I think he flirted with basically every customer he had -- even the old, decrepit ladies of about 95"

The man was obviously not being 'nice' for the sake of it. He was making a cynical (and probably successful) attempt to sell more strawberries by insincerely flattering the women.

Personally, I take a dim view of that. For example, if any waiter (male or female) tries flirting with me I assume that it's an attempt to flatter me into giving a bigger tip, so I make a point of not leaving any tip at all. Hopefully that will encourage them to behave better in future.

Kit

Wow. It seems you're pretty determined to be as difficult as possible over Procyon's comment. My interpretation of Procyon's statement is this:

Freedom to flirt is a result or byproduct of a paradigm in which cordial human interactions are encouraged, in which a suggestion of sexual or romantic attention isn't met with puritanical resistance. This paradigm is to be preferred over an alternate paradigm, in which cordial human interactions must always be screened for any suggestion of sexual or romantic attention.

I don't think Procyon is using her emotional subjectivity as a basis for determining the acceptability of certain behavior. Rather, she's saying how she'd feel if flirting stopped in the world because she isn't being presumptuous enough to say how it'd make other people feel -- quite reasonably, as she, as with each one of us to ourselves, can only truly speak for herself.

Now, to respond directly to whether flirting is okay...

I think it's an important component of society. It lets you find sexual partners in an efficient way. It's just how animals have rituals and mock-battles -- the elk posing with their antlers, the carnivores growling at each other -- without resorting to the "real thing." Without flirting, how'd you ever get laid? You'd have to harass people at random, and that's no good.

Flirting is fun and for the family!!

Just as I am speaking for myself and I'm saying how a stranger flirting with me makes me feel.

Also, your whole intellectualised 'paradigm argument' falls flat because it is based on an assumption that flirting with strangers is in fact a 'cordial human interaction'. Some people might think that grabbing a stranger's buttocks is a 'cordial human interaction'. Maybe it's just a product of your society, and I'm grateful that where I live flirting with strangers is quite rare.



If getting laid is your main goal then flirting with strangers is a very inefficient way of achieving that goal. Even most of the posters here who think flirting with strangers is wonderful don't consider that it's main objective is to get laid. There is a very high probability that the other person isn't going to be interested and may not even share your sexuality. Flirting with people you know, and who might possily be interested in sex with you, is more likely to achieve your goal of getting laid.



If you flirt with strangers, it is random because you don't know anything about them. If you flirt with a stranger, you don't know if they might consider it to be harrassment.



Sorry, but I'm not into flirting within the family. It's a bit too close to incest for me.


Kit

I agree, although obviously it's very, very important to take anyone who thinks they're being sexually harrassed seriously, even if it may seem trivial to an outsider.




That wasn't flirting as most of us see it, that *was* sexual harrassment, so no wonder it made you feel bad. Adults shouldn't flirt with minors, for one thing, and the fact that the behaviour of these men was suggestive and disrespectful takes this beyond flirting. Also, they didn't stop although you weren't feeling comfortable, and flirting is a two-way thing (here where I live anyway, and it seems it is to most people on GA).




What if they smile at you? That is obviously an attempt at getting a tip too.

And the man -- he was being genuinely nice, remember, I was there and saw him. Of course he was also trying to sell more strawberries, I don't think anyone wasn't aware of that. Not even the 95-year-old ladies.




Yeah that's exactly what I meant.

Actually my argument is completely failsafe because I've defined flirting as 'cordial human behavior.' Thus anything uncomfortable or untowards that happens automatically becomes sexual harassment and is no longer flirting. If you want to attack 'cordial human behavior,' then that's different. I would point out that people are usually cordial without grabbing your buttocks. I would argue that things like smiling in a friendly manner, dressing attractively, etc. are cordial, and after not examples of harassment. I would plead for you to consider a nice smile and a bawdy conversation as an instance of amusing 'cordial human behavior' rather than Pure Evilness.




Flirting lets you sharpen your 'let's propogate genes!' skills. It's like masturbating -- you're not really successfully implanting your seed somewhere, but it gives you the illusion of doing so, and thus you subsume the pleasurable responses. And of course gay people have a low probability of meeting those with the same sexuality. But they're still humans, aren't they? They're still going to have human instincts -- unless you introduce a viral vector loaded with Martian genes or whatnot.





Good for you. I'm glad you're a consistent paragon of morality. Almost like Palin.

Which was precisely my point.
By falsely defining what you tried to use your argument to justify, it was 'failsafe' only in that it is circular.
you say:
'cordial human behavior' = good
flirting = 'cordial human behavior'
and so you conclude that:
flirting = good

However, flirting = 'cordial human behavior' is not true. Or at lest it is an assumption which you do not justify.

Which was exactly the point I made - your argument falls down because it is based on an untrue definition. Of course, if you wish to define any word to mean anything YOU want it to mean, then all your arguments will always be 'failsafe'. They will also be meaningless.

You also state, or at least imply, that flirting is part of human instinct. Do you have evidence for this? For example - is it, and has it always been, part of human culture, or is it just part of modern Western culture? Is it an inbuilt, instictive part of the human mating ritual, or is it learned behaviour, like buying engagement rings, going to restaurants, etc?

You equate flirting with 'smiling in a friendly manner' and also with bawdy conversation. Well, I don't know about you, but while I might smile at strangers, I certainly wouldn't be bawdy with them. Neither would I flirt with them nor touch them intimately. Clearly there is a gradation of familiarity between smiling at strangers and touching them.

So, not only do you define your own terms to suit yourself, you also seek to impose your own value judgements about what is appropriate behaviour with strangers. You might argue that I, too, am seeking to impose my judgements. However, no stranger will be offended if I don't flirt with them, but I would be offended if a stranger flirted with me. So at least my judgements will cause least offence.

Finally, the weakness of your argument is not strengthened by name-calling, by 'conveniently' leaving out the smiley I put on my 'incest' comments, and by comparing me with right-wingers such as Palin. In fact, do you even know what her views on flirting are?

Kit

You choose to focus on the word 'sexual' when you define flirting (n.b. this word isn't actually in definition 2 above), and you choose to interpret 'sexual' as 'sexual harassment' or at least as sexual in a bad way.

To me the word sexual has both bad and good connotations, and in this case I would say mainly good ones. True, that is my subjective interpretation, but yours is just as subjective and they therefore have the same validity.

Definition number 2 above does not have the word 'sexual' in it. It has 'amorous', which to me has only positive connotations. In fact, I don't really see how this definition could be interpreted in a negative way.




Neither did you. You didn't justify the assumptions you made in your other post (which I just cited). Instead you assumed that flirting entails groping people's buttocks and such -- what evidence do you have for that? It's never happened to me, and it doesn't fit the definitions you cited up there -- groping someone's buttocks isn't the same as 'to court triflingly or act amorously without serious intentions'. Instead, I'd say that fits the definition of sexual harassment (harass = trouble or annoy continually or repeatedly).

Please quote where you believe that I assume that flirting entails groping people's buttocks.
I don't believe I said that, and I think you misinterpreted what I did say.

Also, two of the thre definitions of flirting I found (three different online dictionaries) use the word sexual. The third used the word amorous. You seem to think that amorous does not imply sexual, yet here are definitions of amorous :
1. Strongly attracted or disposed to love, especially sexual love.
2. Indicative of love or sexual desire

So, basically, all definitions I found of flirting involve 'sexual', either directly or though 'amorous'. No doubt if you look around you will be able to find a definition that doesn't involve 'sexual'. However, most definitions and most people's understanding, will have flirting associated with sexual.

Thus I think that our disagreement really boils down to:
'How sexual is it appropriate to get with strangers?'

Clearly, the answer depends on your upbringing and environment. There is a gradation of behaviour between a friendly smile and a grope, with bawdy jokes and flirting coming somewhere in between those extremes. I think that you and I agree on the two extremes - i.e. smile is good, grope is bad. Somewhere in between those two extremes we will each draw a line between what is appropriate with a stranger and what is not appropriate with a stranger.

Is it not true to say that our disagreement involves where we draw that line?

As a sort of analogy - suppose some people don't like physical contact with strangers, but also suppose you think that it's okay (even good) to touch strangers sometimes, in a completely non-sexual way. Knowing that some people don't like it, would you still persist in touching strangers and risk offending the ones who don't like it?

From your posts, it seems you enjoy flirting with strangers and/or have them flirt with you. Some people find it, uncomfortable, unpleasant, even intimidating, when strangers flirt with them. Because they are strangers to you, you can't know if the person you start flirting with will find it distressing. Are you happy to risk hurting those strangers just because you enjoy it? After all, if you refrain from flirting with strangers, it won't totally deprive you of your flirting pleasure, because you can still enjoy flirting with non-strangers, who you know will also enjoy it.

Kit

You obviously don't get flirted with or flirt enough, Kit.

Being flirted with has a sort of liberation attached to it, a validation of self. Someone has taken interest in the person you've built yourself into, which means you're doing a good job.

I, for one, would be very depressed if I didn't have three guys wanting to bang me right now. I'd feel unattractive, unwanted, and utterly abysmal. Being flirted with is just... it's fun. Also, flirting often means different things.

When I flirt with my girl friends it's a sign of affection and regard that I have for them. I don't REALLY wanna play with their funbags, but when I'm drunk and I motorboat them, it's a bonding thing. They know that I picked THEIR titties to play with over all the other titties I could play with, because I love them. When I flirt with a random guy, it's for a mutual pick-me-up a lot of times. It's amazing what a little attention from a random guy can do for your mood. When I flirt in a serious manner, as in trying to keep that person talking to me as much as possible and trying to wedge in some jokes that are revivable in a manner only we would get... then that means that I wanna keep 'em. If I grab your ass I just wanna grope you, sorry.

See what I mean? Flirting is an integral part of happy daily life, at least for me. Without it I'd be a lot less happy.




OH OH OH EDITED TO ADD!

Kit, I would totally touch strangers even if I thought they might be offended. I LIKE physical contact and I think it's good for your mental well-being, so I give it as much as I'd like to get it. Also... c'mon, if a prude gets pissy with me for flirting with them or touching them or whatever, then it's really easy to be like "I'm sorry, won't happen again" and stay the hell away from them. Everyone wins that way!

I think that's what this debate comes down to. Flirting comes more naturally to some than others. I am a terrible flirt. and so I think its because of lack of practise, being very skeptical of guys intentions, and lack of confidence in myself that I get uncomfortable. So I kind of block flirting as its easier to not flirt back and 'safer', hence why I feel out of control. Im learning to try to accept attention and not to judge people too quickly. it is fun at times, and certainly alot less fun feeling uncomfortable and trying to avoid it. (however back to the earlier debate, I would also not participate because I wasnt interested in them like that, and so wouldnt want to encourage them, but even that would make me uncomfortable as I'm cutting them down when they are being nice)

however innocent the real flirting as you say (not what happened in Turkey and simular) may be and natural to the flirter, the person recieving it may not be like that at all. I can say that ordinary flirting has made me feel awful when to someone who is confident and used to it that would seem an alien concept. but it is the way I often feel. even if I am trying to change that. thats why in the past I have often also felt bad or uncomfortable as the person flirting just thinks Im being rude or not fun when I don't flirt back or am awkward, they don't understand what to them is simple easy flirting, for me, isnt as trivial a scene.

Even though I'm trying to flirt back more, there are certain times that I think I still wouldnt like someone to flirt with me, or for them to think that flirting is acceptable behaviour and that I'm simply being unreasonable. The office is an example. If say someone did genuinely like me, and there was more chemistry there then yes. however otherwise I would find it unproffessional, and its where I think the flirting can become part of the power politics of an office, as some men would use it as a way of trying to dominate and asserting their role, and the womens, in the office relations. Maybe Im being abit dramatic, but some of my friends have worked in environments like this, and the men may not have realised what they were doing or why it was inappropriate and not just normal behaviour, but then get funny when you try to tell them to stop. and of course you've still got to work with them. but of course as you say, maybe its only flirting when 2 people both interact.

celia

well I wouldnt see it that way. the way you would retreat like I'm some crazed animal would likely make me as depressed as you'd feel not being flirted with. I'd find it rude. and its often the case that those people aren't very good at concealing their disgust at you for not appreciating their total love and adjustment to flirting as the norm. I'm perfectly happy making new friends, but I'm not really adjusted to people assuming they can be overtly sexual in their touches, especially to strangers. so no often I don't simply want that attention to make myself feel good, its not my goal on a night out or whatever. However I am a medium touchy person, at least with friends, but not as much as some people I know well who are extremely so with everyone, but I do like it (but not if I think its sexual).

However back to the top bit, I do suffer from lack of self-image to an extent, so what I'm battling against is often in my head thinking, they don't really like me, they are just being inappropriate or playing games with me or something, so it doesnt reinforce good things for me often. As I say, I know thats bad, and Im working on changing that, and I am making progress.

celia

But presumably you wouldn't flirt with girls who were strangers?
Certainly, I hope you wouldn't play with the titties of girls who were strangers!



Again, presumably if you grab a guy's ass they can't be total strangers? Otherwise you would likely get punched in the face, especially if they turn out to be straight! That would almost certainly be the case here in the UK. Is the US really so different in this respect?



Don't you think that's a selfish attitude? To do things to a total stranger, which that stranger may not want, just because it makes you happy?



This brings up two points -

1. You are happy to do something to a stranger that offends that stranger, just because you enjoy doing it and you feel it's good for you.

2. You think that anyone who doesn't agree with you about being flirted with or touched by a stranger is a pissy prude. That attitude, reprehensible in itself, will be picked up by your victim, who will thereby be made to feel bad for rejecting your unwanted advances. So, again, not only do you offend them with unwanted advances, you make them feel bad just because they don't respond positively to being offended.



This is exactly how I feel. As we are both in the UK and almost all the supporters of flirting with strangers appear to be in the USA, maybe it's a cultural thing.

When you feel as we do, if you don't return the flirting then you are treated as if you were the one being rude, and if you show you're offended then they treat you like a prude, etc. Thus the victim is further victimised.

Unlike me, however, it seems that you want to change your own behaviour and personality to try comply with the 'flirters'. My question, though, is - why should you?



I totally agree with celia in this.

Kit

I don't think its necessarily cultural, though there likely is some kind of difference. However I do think its personality and character of the person. Some of my friends are natural flirts, or rather they can cope with people flirting with them and don't take it seriously. They can take the extra attention, pass it back, all while having lots of fun, and still deflect any serious sexual intent (they have partners) and get on with whatever they were doing. Its quite good on a night out because they can distract and dance with those that think im being no fun. but I have other friends who are like me to different degrees and it is down to their personality. shyness plays a big part, but for others its just they aren't interested in certain types of flirting while still being perfectly comfortable with themselves. and I also think its to do with sex drive maybe.

Why I say that I would want to change? Well for one, I want to be able to be more confident in giving people the brush off in a more witty manner, so semi flirting I suppose. But the main reason is because I think my block on it (for some of the flirting, the ones I would be interested in returning, not the pesky too forward not nice ones) is to do with my self-image. So I'm more working on why I automatically don't take things as a compliment, and become defensive when I actually am or may be interested. I do think I am ruining chances for myself sometimes, and am being maybe not unreasonable, but a little unsocialable in general, at times. So I suppose what I'm saying is that I need to improve my confidence, and stop myself from being defensive and ruining things when I do really like someone. but also sometimes the flirting, or a very mild form of it isnt anything threatening, and could be just like being pleasent, in which case its another way of making friends, which im stopping myself from doing by, in those cases, not being as confident.

I haven't explained myself very well, it does depend very much on who is flirting and why and the setting.

celia

Wow! What a heated discussion this has become. I would like to offer my thoughts in a few words.

When dealing with strangers, a single smile combined with "thank you" in exchange for a service rendered or in returning a greeting is both acceptable and necessary. A second smile is questionable (OK if an even greater service has been performed). A pinch on the butt is sexual harassment regardless of the stranger's gender or sexual preference.

LOL, I always do leave a bigger tip when my server flirts with me. The other day my waiter hugged me.


It really depends on circumstance. I'm sure it's because I seem to live in some cross between gay Disneyland and a Queer as Folk episode, but I meeting interesting guys my odds seem to be quite good that they're gay/bi. I'm sure this is because since my 'social network' is overwhelming composed of GLBT/Allies any 'mutual friends' I meet have a high likelihood of being gay. Apart from that I tend to go places that have a strong gay contingent anyway. And of course if I'm actually going out in the social/recreational sense of the phrase, there's a really good chance it's at a gay club, bar, or restaurant so again my odds are quite good.

Apart from that, if I'm interested in a guy in the first place he has a higher than average chance of being gay/bi because I'm seldom interested in straight guys. It's like for example, if I notice a car I like it stands a very good chance of being blue. This is because I'm 'attracted' to blue cars and more likely to notice them in the first place. So even though the sheer number of blue cars might not be all that large compared to the entire sum of cars in the area, the fact that I like it predisposes it to being blue.

That's all a bit off topic though





I would like to remind everyone to avoid making sarcastic remarks that are directed at other members



Someone could be disappointed that you didn't flirt with them. Maybe they didn't even overtly flirt with you. Maybe they just tried to make themselves attractive and available and they will be disappointed by your inaction. Just playing devil's advocate


Well, this and Kit's and Corvus' earlier statements all point to one thing; it's how you define flirting. To give two extreme examples:

If you automatically define flirting as something which is light, pleasant, and welcome then there may indeed be actions which are 'too much', but one cannot commit those actions without straying under the definition of 'harassment' (or whatever other word you might want to use). Thus it doesn't matter what someone does you likely wouldn't be complaining that they were flirting inappropriately since your own personal definition would preclude 'flirting' being inappropriate in the first place. Instead you would complain that the person was harassing you. or leering at you or something.

On the other hand, if you define flirting as something inappropriately forward, overly sexual, or otherwise unwelcome then there may indeed be actions which are perfectly pleasant and welcome, but you wouldn't define them as 'flirting' because your definition would preclude flirting from being something that is welcome.

I think everything else falls somewhere between those two points. For example Kit might welcome some friendly, social actions from strangers, but perhaps he wouldn't define them as 'flirting' because he's already decided that 'flirting' isn't welcome from strangers, so if this pleasant action is welcome then it mustn't be flirting.

As an example I do intentionally flirt from time to time, but I certainly don't do it 'all the time'. On the other hand several people have said 'you flirt with everyone' or something to that effect. I've been accused of flirting with tons of people with which it was never my conscious intention to flirt. So clearly the definition the observers use has varied from my personal definition.

I smile and make eye contact with everyone with whom I have any interaction. If I notice someone looking at me, or even just looking my way, I usually give them a smile and a nod. I'll politely hold a conversation (and usually fully engage in it) with anyone who tries to make small talk with me. I tend to at least giggle a bit if someone says something that they meant to be funny, and I'm the sort of person who is inclined to make amusing remarks from time to time. However, all of these things aren't my efforts to flirt; they're just the social principles to which I ascribe. I'm uncomfortable or feel rude if I don't do these things, and every now and then I'm tired, grumpy, or in a hurry and I'm not in the mood to make small talk with someone. Yet if they start chatting with me I probably will anyway.





I think the key here is reading the cues that people are sending. For example I'll smile and make eye contact with the majority of people, but if they look away are start to look uncomfortable then I drop it. If they look receptive I may say 'hello' or make a casual remark about something, but again if their response is closed off I usually just smile again and go on about my business. If the conversation continues more serious, actual flirting might begin but we wouldn't have gotten to that point in most cases unless they were at least fairly receptive. I also continue to use the approach of backing off if it looks like I've made them uncomfortable.

So I don't think people usually feel like they get unwanted attention from me. Also, in general I think with the more mild stuff, the chatting and smiles (which as I said I don't personally consider 'flirting' anyway) you really do have to be 'looking for it' to perceive it as flirting.

Anyway, that's why I think it's usually safe to flirt with strangers without offending them, because I think that by time my conduct would reach the point at which it was clearly flirting the person would have already sent me enough cues for me to be fairly confident that it isn't 'inappropriate'. Indeed, I think the reason I ended up starting this thread was because it was one of the more relatively rare cases in which I feel like I might have 'gone too far'. Even then I don't think my behaviour would have been felt to have been inappropriate, it would have been my lack of 'follow up' that was inappropriate. Actually I usually don't have that problem either because I can similarly generally sense when the other person is interested in moving things along and if I'm not then I act to keep things at the level we're currently out or take it down a notch. The problem was that I either missed or ignored the cues he was sending and similarly ignored my own gut telling me I wasn't interested and continued to flirt back and keep 'upping the ante' until I was 'supposed' to ask him out at which point I didn't and thus made a social blunder.

Anyway, I'm glad for this thread because I don't think I would have analyzed the situation in such a productive way and gleaned as much insight without this discussion!


Take care all,
Kevin

I think it's a question of definition, too. To me, as soon as flirting becomes annoying, or even when it isn't mutual anymore, it is no longer flirting but something else. In that respect it's like love, it's a two-way thing, if one person isn't in on it it becomes something else -- in some cases, sexual harassment (which is =/= flirting, the two cannot occur at the same time between the same two people).