Welcome to the "For the Love" Discussion thread.

Chris grew up a loner in small-town Arizona, but things began to change for him when he started college. Sometimes for the better, but sometimes for the worse, and often with humor, the changes and challenges affect his life, as he sets for on the road of life, and towards finding the love of his life, with a lot of adventure along the way.








Please take a look and let me know what you think.

I also want to invite all forms of criticism: Don't be shy. If you feel more comfortable doing so you can PM me, but feel free to criticize in the thread.

Thanks!
CJ

CJ!

Just read your latest offering! I really enjoy your tongue in cheek approach to writing. I would very much equate this as your style. Its present in everything you have offered up so far. From the fun of No Shirt No Problem! to the nose thumbing of The Muse, and now you continue along with For the Love with the delightful description, in the driveway. You had me doing a double take there.

I did notice however, in the first few lines you were telling action rather than showing it.



The bank tellers words, shaking me from my trance, ushered me forward to cash my paycheck...

The second part....

My world was about to come crashing down around me.

Wouldn't Chris already feel that his world was crashing down around him? Knowing that he couldn't cover the blackmail and the rent. Or would he wait to think it was crashing down after confronting those who need to be confronted?

Other then the showing action rather then telling it thing I still love the story, and can't wait to see others reactions to it.

Steve

PS, you ornery goat! I had to hunt down the link on my own!! Well sorta

Nice start!

I've got two complaints.

1. Tears aren't cold. That cold tear at the start of the story jumped out at me as out of place.

2. The ending was too abrupt. It took me a couple of times to realise that he'd found out that Steve was homophobic WITHOUT telling him. You probably should expand on that to say how he found out about Steve's attitude

Blackmail stories are hard to write well, in my opinion. Too often they are unrealistic, or the blackmailee is stupid. I'm confident you'll pull it off, though. The start of the prologue implies that the blackmailer has taken Chris for all his money. I'm interested in finding out how long it was from the end of the prologue to that start. How long did the blackmailer screw Chris into the ground? All interesting questions that I'm sure you'll be answering soon
Graeme

Hi Cj,

The prologue was enjoyable. There were some things that I found, but they were already pointed out.. lol.

There's a lot to this story that is great. The description of the car was an attractive quality... lol. A guy that knows and enjoys a nice vehicle has always been amusing.

Anyway, good start. I like where you're going with it. A lot of conflict can come from this prologue...

So keep it coming.

Krista

Hi Steve!!
Absolutely right on the problems there!
Chris was in denial until he ran out of money, but I should have explained that.
I do need to work on the showing rather than telling part. Thanks!!

The bit about the car was to lure the readers into thinking it was a stereotypical "describe the love interest police-blotter style" scene. That was fun for me to write. :-)

Sorry about forgetting the link! Work has been hell today so I've been trying to do six things at once, and doing none well. LoL!
BTW everyone, Steve has been of enormous help in this story, including beta reading, and I owe him a huge amount of thanks.
Thank you!!!!!



Good catch on the tears! Oops!! Thank you!!!!

The ending, though, well, there are reasons for that. (yep, I hate it when Authors do this! LoL!)

BTW this isn;t a blackmail story, really. The Blackmail is not central to the story, it is more of a lead-in. things lighten up a good bit further on.
This is more a slice-of life story than one centered on any one thing like blackmail. It isn't a dark story.



Thank you Krista!!! And Thank you, too, for pushing me to get to work, or this wouldn't be here!

You've got mail.

Thank you Kitty!!

Maybe I would have been better off calling this Chapter one (and making it a bit longer) than a Prologue?

There is a great deal I am not telling for a reason, but you are right, I was unclear in some places where I could have done better, and this is definitly something I'll pay more attention too.
Thank you!!!

Did you do that thing I suggested? There was work to be done there. I can't wait to swallow the next chapter!

Get to work goat!

A nice start with a believable, realistic premise (except maybe for the blackmail) that has some of us wondering rhetorically how much of this may be autobiobraphical.

If, as you say below, blackmail is not central to the main story, then can you find a way to de-emphasize it here? Consider that the blackmail announcement is the final line, set off by vertical space, indented, and split into sentence plus fragment for, I suppose, added punch. The reader has every reason to conclude that blackmail will be central.

I like the informal, conversational style. In fact, if this were my story, I would read it aloud, revising sentences that stuck in my throat, caused me to trip, or sounded odd.

I put a couple of minor suggestions in the efiction review. You've gotten better here. A minor example of imprecision: "The onset of School had started, which, together with my new job at a local bookstore, cut down on my time with Steve."

I agree with your assessment (prodded by the discussion?) that your "prolog" is really neither prolog nor first chapter, but an uncomfortable mixture. Your suggestion above is to flesh it out into Chapter 1. If so, and if you retain the opening scene, you'll have readers on edge waiting, perhaps too long, to hear what's gone so wrong.

Perhaps it would better to tighten up the prolog to less than half it's current size, delaying sections that don't set the essential scene for the next part, Chapter 1. Some pieces that could be delayed include (in no particular order)

• car-love at first sight -- not excised, merely postponed!
• weak air conditioning and where to sit when
• gaydar (but you could mention a lapse of judgement)
• school, work, and less time with Steve
• Betty (Others have complained that she is given short shrift. Because the narrator hasn't acted on her advice, maybe you could delay her intro.)

On the other hand, how this wonderful Steve is suddenly revealed as a homophobe probably deserves a little more attention; either that, or don't dwell on how wonderful he is until Chapter 1. By the way, a short "prolog" does not have to be a separate chapter. You can set it off from what follows with as little as "* * *".

Like Kitty said, 61 40 39 hours and counting.

We are prepared to take drastic measures if the car scene is excised....


Steve

Indeed I did, and I am very thankful for it!

The point about my use of "so" and "and was" et al is very valid. The reason for it is that I was told, quite a while back, that I over-used "and".

I tend to favor complex sentences (probably due to speaking that way) so my options were rather limited. I enjoy wording variations when reading, and I have heard that others do also, yet you do have a valid point. So, I would like to ask others to chime in on this: should I (assuming I am grammatically correct in the instance) continue to use words such as "so", etc, as sometimes replacements for "and", or should I eschew them?



I'm afraid I don't quite understand: How does the above not agree? What I was trying to say was that they had become the best of freiends, as if they had known each other all their lives? How should that be written?



I do agree here. I went with overly complex structure where it was not needed, and will amend that in future.

continued in next post due to quote limits

[quote name='Birdsofafeather' post='52781' date='November 7 2006, 06:55 PM']-make sure that, in a series of closely placed noun-adverb/adverb-verb (or more intricate) sequences, all of your parts agree

ex. [quote]I found myself becoming whatI'd never dared hope [/quote]
[/quote]

I did know I was bending the rules a tad with that sentence, so I admit, I write it that way because I felt it important to the emotional aspects rather than paying strict attention to the rule book. I couldn't figure out a way to write it that didn't appear to be just standard verbiage.

[quote name='Birdsofafeather' post='52781' date='November 7 2006, 06:55 PM']-Part of speech agreement *ahem* seems a little unclear
[quote]also was not shy about changing clothes in front of me and had no problems with me seeing him naked.[/quote]notice the 'seeing him naked'. Did you mean 'me' or did you forget to place an 'I' at the beginning of the clause?
[quote]I also felt that his kind of confidence had an allure all its own.[/quote]'of' its own? By saying 'his kind' you are already saying that it is unique. I'd get rid of 'his kind' just because, although 'all of its own' seems a little cliche, it provides a much clearer contrast.[/quote]

I'm not quite sure what you mean regarding the "me". The "me" represents the narrator (the protagonist in this case). Where would the "I" go?

[quote name='Birdsofafeather' post='52781' date='November 7 2006, 06:55 PM']-Commentary that seems out of context, or is an eccentric part of the narration, could be marked by either punctuation, separation, or a device such as italics.
[quote]Yeah, right; I couldn’t even detect a flaming drag queen at two paces![/quote]
[/quote]

Good point there too. I'll give that a try!
Thank you!
[/quote]


[quote name='knotme' post='52810' date='November 7 2006, 11:39 PM']A nice start with a believable premise.

If, as you say below, blackmail is not central to the main story, then can you find a way to de-emphasize it here? My gosh, the blackmail announcement is the final line, set off by vertical space, indented, and split into sentence plus fragment for, I suppose, added punch. The reader has every reason to conclude that blackmail will be central.

I like the informal, conversational style. In fact, if this were my story, I would read it aloud, revising sentences that stuck in my throat, caused me to trip, or sounded odd.

I put a couple of minor suggestions in the efiction review. You've gotten better here. A minor example of imprecision: "The onset of School had started, which, together with my new job at a local bookstore, cut down on my time with Steve."

I agree with your assessment (prodded by the discussion?) that your "prolog" is really neither prolog nor first chapter, but an uncomfortable mixture. Your suggestion above is to flesh it out into Chapter 1. If so, and if you retain the opening scene, you'll have readers on edge waiting, perhaps too long, to hear what's gone so wrong.[/quote]

Would a teenager say "onset" believably? I tend to tone down my vocabulary in a first-person recount to try and match a believable vernacular and parlance for the narrator. I do agree though that it was poorly worded, and I think "the beginning of" would have worked better.

I need to defer any further comments by me regarding the blackmail plot for at least until Ch 2 is online a week from now. Sorry. Y'all can certainly talk about it, but I can't.

[quote name='knotme' post='52810' date='November 7 2006, 11:39 PM']Some pieces that could be delayed include (in no particular order)

• car-love at first sight

[/quote]
I omitted ones I can't discuss right now. That leaves the "love at first sight".

Knotme, as you might guess from the title, this is in large part a love story, and here you are suggesting I delete the part where the protagonist first sets eyes on the chrome and whitewalls of his future lover?!?!?! I'm shocked!!!

I just hope the sex scenes don't come across as too mechanical...

[quote name='knotme' post='52810' date='November 7 2006, 11:39 PM']Like Kitty said, 61 40 hours and counting. [/quote]

It is with deep regret that I must inform everyone that, due to several issues raised in this thread, I see no choice but to reschedule the posting of chapter one until five minutes ago.

That's sad. I was enjoying waiting. I suppose I have no choice but to go read it now... *sigh*

Okay, I've read chapter one now. Here's a few comments:

1. There is no need to repeat the end of the prologue at the start of the chapter. If readers want to know how the previous chapter ended, they can go back and read it themselves.

2. I found the following paragraph cumbersome:
I can see what you were trying to do, but the "day would come" and "this day came" just grated on me. I'll admit that I tend to go a bit overboard at times trying to avoid repetition, but I've always found that the start of a chapter is when most things like this get noticed. After the first page or so, I'm usually too involved in reading it as a story to spot things like this.

3. My wife's family had a cat called "Killer Kate". Beelzebub reminds me a lot of her

4. No offense, but:

I hate single tears. I've never seen one in my life. It doesn't change the meaning to use "tears" instead of "tear".

I've finished the story now... and I'm shaking. The identity of the blackmailer was a surprise, but you've resolved the questions I raised about the prologue. I'd like to know more about the blackmailer, but I'm sure that's going to come out soon. A number of possibilities present themselves, including Chris getting his money back. I also noticed the possibility that the information Chris was told, about Steve being homophobic, could be wrong. It hasn't been confirmed by anyone else or but other events, as far as I can see.

I won't say any more at this point, just in case someone reading this hasn't read chapter one yet. You've left it as a bit of a cliffhanger, but not as much as the prologue.

Nice chapter, and I suppose I'll read chapter two when it comes out...

Graeme

ACK!! That paragraph is terrible like that! This is what happens when the writer makes a change to one part of a sentance and not the rest. . OOPS! I'll go fix that tomorrow. I'll change it to "now that the day had finally arrived.".

Glad you liked Beelzebub



Seriously? I've always found that I get them like that if I'm holding them back.



What? Me? Leave a cliffhanger? Would I do such a thing????

Thanks Graeme!!!!

So, Chapter 1 gets quite interesting, but I'm having a little trouble believing it. Chris is maybe 2 sigma off the norm; Eric, maybe 3 sigma in another direction. The combination is a little hard to swallow, but that's only how it looks to me right now, at the end of Chapter 1. There's plenty of time to reel me in. (I worded this comment to be the least possible help those who haven't read Chapter 1 yet. ) Uh, probably not. Ya got me there.

Eric is not normal, but I'm very curious why you say Chris is 2 sigma off the norm?? What strikes you as atypical about him (other than him being gay?).

Thanks!!!

I have to agree with C James. Chris doesn't strike me as being exceptional in any particular way. He looks like your typical closeted gay who doesn't want to lose friends by coming out -- or being outed. He went into denial with the blackmail, but that's not exceptional. He probably spent those weeks trying to work out how to keep paying everything, and constantly think the solution was "just around the corner".

Would I, at that age, have paid blackmail to prevent being outed? I don't know. I'd like to think I wouldn't, because I would realise that it's a never ending situation, but I don't know. I was a lot less mature then than I am now.

The blackmailer made the mistake of being too greedy. In a novel I read many years ago someone commented that the idea is to screw the blackmailee until it hurts, but not to "kill" them. That way they'll keep paying. Eric asked for too much and forced Chris to face up to the fact that he couldn't pay -- and hence forced him into invalidating the blackmail by revealing the secret anyway.

Well, this is interesting. Maybe I'm the 2-sigma guy. I went through school as a nurd and a nobody, never having many friends, but also never succumbing completely to peer pressure. I cannot imagine valuing friendship highly enough to submit to blackmail, especially from a friend's younger sibling! If I were in Steve's position, Eric would change permanently from younger brother to fellow lodger. Part of my calculation would be Eric's cold calculation and his ability to manipulate me while torturing my friend. Unacceptable! I don't need a brother like that. As long as I live in my parent's home, I'll tolerate him, but I'd never again like him or trust him. Siblings are great, but they're not essential.

Edit: So, if I were Chris, I would hope that Steve would take my side over Eric's. If my feelers confirmed Steve's homophobia, I would promptly move out. (I ran away from problems a lot when younger.) But if my feelers contradicted Eric's claims of homophobia, then I would, I hope, confront Steve promptly. Eric would then probably deny all. What happens then? Depends on how well Steve knows his bad seed brother. If Steve turns on me, then so be it. I get another friend somewhere. Or not. Either outcome sure beats blackmail from some shrimp turd.

Is it just me?

I'll accept that Chris may be in a minority with how he handled it, but I don't think he's exceptional. I have a broad opinion of what's typical. If he's an emotional guy, or (like me) has been emotionally deprived (and there are indicators of that), then having a connection to someone would have a big impact on him. If it was just a friendship, then I'd think he'd walk away, but we know it's stronger than that, and he may really fear losing a strong friendship when he's not had that before (or recently). We also don't know how easy it would be for him to move out. It may, conceivably, require him to either quit college or change to another school, with all the headaches involved. That is not something to be done lightly.

I think the total sum of those things, plus an absolute terror of being gay-bashed, makes him succumbing to the blackmail believable. You'll also notice he didn't have a lot of time between being found out to paying out the $4K. He almost certainly didn't have a chance to try to find out for himself if Steve was homophobic or not. I'm not even sure that idea crossed his mind -- he just might've taken Eric's word for it uncritically (doing that is more an experience thing, and he may not have had that experience).

Just my opinion, of course

I just now noticed. I'd missed that big payment, thinking he shelled out $4000 over 20 weeks. That changes everything. Chris, that was stupid, but you may get your money back. Die, Eric, die!

I really liked chapter one! I have to say though, you definately earned them horns. You're evil! Leaving us swinging in the breeze wondering what's going to happen. I want to kick the younger brother's ass!

He should have taken that money and just moved instead of forking it all over to the boy.

Better yet, turn that little bastard into the police for extortion! So.... when can I look forward to reading chapter 2?!

I thought all authors were evil? Isn't it some sort of prerequisite?



WARNING! Spoiler Alert!
Eric isn't the nicest of people.




Turning him over to the police would be... problematic. Perhaps I'd best explain a bit for the benefit of those here who aren't familiar with small towns. The Father of Eric and Steve is a Police Officer; in a small town, take a wild guess whose side he would likely be on if someone tried accusing his kid of anything?

Lets put it this way: Marching into the police station in a small Arizona redneck town, accusing the Deputy Sheriff's kid of a felony, and then announcing that you are gay is probably not the wisest choice of action <cough>.

When will chapter 2 be out? Hmmm. The original schedule was for Thursdays, so a week from today, but I posted Ch 1 a bit early. Tuesday I think. I promised weekly postings, so I'd best go with Tuesday.

I enjoyed reading the prolog and the first chapter, and I can’t wait for the next chapter.

I have a gut feeling that Steve is gay. Living in the kind of place he lives and with the kind of parents he has, he feels the need to pretend that he hates gays. It is unthinkable for Steve to come out to his parents and friends and he is wearing a mask all the time.

The question is what can he do now. If he stands up for Chris, he is at risk of being exposed. If he doesn’t, he might loose the chance to become close to someone he really cares about, and maybe even in love with.

Eric is a monster. He steals money from somebody who is really struggling with work, college, paying rent and being independent. I admire Chris for being able to pool this off. I see students like him in my classes; although very few are as independent as Chris.

Great job James; I’ll buckle my seatbelts for the next chapter.

Hugs,
Michael.

The only question I've got is when did the word 'wither' get introduced...

Oops!!! That was in the feedback request, and so was added AFTER it was posted, and thus AFTER Emoe, my editor, had worked on it. Fixed now!

Heh, I sometimes make minor changes after Emoe has edited, which is why I add the line in the editing credit "all remaining errors mine alone".

BTW, everyone, as I mention in the credits, Emoe not only edited and advised, but thoguht up the title! (I'd been stumped).

Thank you Emoe!!!



Thank you Michael!!

Chapter two will be out on Tuesday, and I am thinking of making Tuesday my regular posting day.

I can't comment on some of the issues you raised, because Emoe, my editor, is mean and will hurt me if I give hints.

One of my favorite things about Chris is that instead of blowing his money in high school, he worked and saved to get himself out of the situation he was in. That is part of why he was so shaken when the new life he had worked so hard for was suddenly threatened.

Eric? Well, Eric is Eric.

He's not the only one. I've heard of readers who have threatened to hunt down any author who gave out spoilers. Now, I'm a nice echidna, so I won't do that, but I'll warn you that my spines are sharp.....

Graeme

I make it my policy to never offend an Echidna, so, between you and the mean Emoe, I'll keep my mouth shut and not say a word!

Chapter two is now up http://www.gayauthors.org/eficiton/viewsto...0&chapter=3

Please let me know what you thing, good or bad.

I thing it was pretty good. It's a cliche for best friends to turn out to be both gay and in love with each other, but I don't mind it. I'm a romantic, after all. It was an obvious direction for the story to go. Now it's a challenge for you to put some originality into it.

I'm concerned about the car, though. Is it going to get jealous?

As for Eric, I suppose I'm going to have to wait at least ANOTHER week before I find out what happens there.



One book I read on creative writing said to trying to include as many senses as reasonable in your description. I read this and smiled at how well you've done.

Graeme

OUCH!! Damn boy leave some meat for the vultures!

First... It is not fair to say that the story climaxes too soon until you have read it in it’s entirety. CJ could have some wicked plot twists and turns that could make this seem like the ordinary.

The whole idea in the story, (up to this point) is that this has been a process and deception of time. This has been going on and building over weeks and has led to this. He didn’t just suddenly ‘not’ have enough money. This was just a jump in time of several weeks.

Re-read your post You sound absolutely viscious lol.. well… okay.. maybe blunt to a thin skin like me… but it’s kind of harsh, and some of the comments seem a little ‘pre-emptive’. We can’t say this is a ‘climax’ until we read the entire thing. That is unfair to the rest of the story and the writer

Now.. yes… it might need work here and there… so…. Let’s offer some suggestions instead of shooting the holes.

Ya know I love ya… but .. OUCH!

Now you see why Emoe has such a hard job!!!



I was concerned about the cliche aspect too. I probably shouldn't have used the term "best freinds" as they have only known each other a few months.

I hope you will find it original, and I think the next few chapters will help in that regard.



I can't tell you, becuase then Emoe would hurt me!



Thanks!!! I make use of that technique in quite a few future chapters. As for Eric, what? do you mean you are expecting him to re-appear in the story?

Well, I surely shouldn't give clues, like mentioning that the title of Chapter 3 is "Get the Rope..." so I won't....

Thanks Graeme!!



uhoh. Well, I think you have a point there. The honest truth is that I put those freinds intros there instead of later for two reasons: So they weren't just "out of the blue" later on, and also to add some bulk to a very skinny chapter, and also to give a bit more background on why Chris felt he stood to lose everything if he was outed (and not all has been said on that, yet.).

The good news is that I think that problem is (I hope) over, but please let me know if you still see in in Ch 3 or later.

I should note here that although quite a few chapters are written, I can still change them prior to posting (or even after for minor things), so I can make immediate use (as well as future writing use) of criticisms.



I didn't want this to be a story about their coming out or getting together, so what you are seeing right now is more of a stage-setting and character development section. I certainly agree that having the climax in chapter one or two would be a horrible idea!! Well, not unless I plan on having them sit around and watching the grass grow for the next 30 chapters...

Thanks Birds!!!

Leave it up to CJ to get us all posting more
First, I agree on the climax side of things with DS,

If this story took place over the span of a week, CJ started it on Wednesday instead of the usual Monday. Events in the characters life from the previous two days will surely still be effecting his actions on this day. Maybe the use of the prologue to fill in the gaps of the missing time was a misstep leading to this general timeline confusion.

Secondly, I dont think birds comments were too way out of wack, just providing his take on the information provided so far.

All I can say if the story starts with this big a bang....
and I can't say anything else, CJ promised no one would find me if I did....

Steve

I was late to the party again....

I guess what I was wondering... well any writer wonders... is what exactly might you change? Which sentence or paragraph... what led you away or might lead you to ignore any (and specifically this) story.

You give great criticism... but it seems vague. What specifically would you change?

We all get criticism... it's the best thing we can hope for, because it teaches us the most. What I'm curious about.. is what specifically brought about the criticism. Was it an over all feel, or specific places or events?

What events brought about your feelings of 'over exposure'. You know... that kind of thing. Or was it simply culumlative and just kinda popped your brains?

I don't want you to think I'm trying to be confrontational, I just figure... if you're getting good criticism... we might as well hope to hear on how to fix it. You know?

I wasn't going to jump in on this, but a certain reclusive goat keeps calling me a postaholic so I supposed I'd better try to live up to the reputation....


I agree, to some extent. I didn't see a reason for the friend introductions at that point, but I didn't say anything because it was possible that they would become relevant soon afterwards. However, chapter two doesn't mention them at all, so I think that the introductions could've been moved to another point. Maybe mention them by name, but I'm not sure it was worthwhile going bang, bang, bang with a mention and short section of each one.

Introducing characters and settings is a major error-prone area for a new writer. I know I made major mistakes in this respect when I started, and I'm still not sure I've got it right with my latest story.


This is trickier. I think I have come down on DarkShadow on this one. The prologue and chapter one were tense, and then chapter two is more relaxed. If the story maintains the flavour of chapter one, then this is a legitimate concern, but if it goes back to the tension of chapter one then it just means we're in for a rollercoaster ride.

In almost every story I can think of there are fast, action-packed chapters, and slower, recovery chapters. Between them they lead the reader up to a conclusion. How to pace things is difficult to describe, so we have to trust to the author's judgement on this. It may be he has it slightly wrong, but until we see the rest of the story we can't be sure. He may have it spot on, or has even (hopefully not) made the start of the story too bland for the rest (*fingers crossed that this isn't the case, because I don't think I'd be able to handle it*).

Edit: I've just noticed your comment about it being a possible turn-off for a new reader and why. I have to agree with you there. Chapter two doesn't provide any indication that it's not going to be "just another best friends become lovers" story. I'm trusting C James that it won't be, but maybe some sort of hint in chapter two would've helped.

It's a hard lesson to learn when to let the reader take a breath. We eager beavers want to keep them enthralled and breathless with every word... when in reality... even that can wear out a mind.

Sometimes we slap you in the head with information so it's easier for us to continue in future chapters. Then we can say... well my god... we explained that 6 chapters ago! Well... who remembers that long ago.

Bird gives great criticism... I guess what we all strive for is ... well... we know what's wrong now... how should we fix it?

Those answers aren't that easy some times.

Yes... you did come down on me before about this kind of thing lol.... but you were gentle How did you word that... 'YOU SUCK' Just Kidding! lol we all know you would never do such a thing.... You've all never been anything but helpful.

Like I said above... if we're getting great criticism.. we might as well maximize it. Get the most from it we can. Than again... goats are thick skinned... someone get the ball peen hammer... we'll beat it in!

Love you all... didn't mean to cause a stir... just wanted more info!

Take care!

[quote name='DarkShadow' post='53782' date='November 14 2006, 06:22 PM']First... It is not fair to say that the story climaxes too soon until you have read it in it’s entirety. CJ could have some wicked plot twists and turns that could make this seem like the ordinary.[/quote]

It does look like it climaxes too soon, but to clear things up I'll confess, that is my fault (and Birds understandably read it that way) because I wanted to give that false impression and was trying to do so. I won't get into detail here (spoiler reasons) but the fact Birds felt that way means what I was trying to do worked. (Birds, I hope you aren't upset!)

[quote name='DarkShadow' post='53782' date='November 14 2006, 06:22 PM']The whole idea in the story, (up to this point) is that this has been a process and deception of time. This has been going on and building over weeks and has led to this. He didn’t just suddenly ‘not’ have enough money. This was just a jump in time of several weeks.[/quote]

Bingo! Good catch!! I structured it this way becuase I wanted the blackmail plot as the lead-in and character intro, just some minor stress to keep things interesting, but I didn't start the story earlier, chronologically, it''s not about that.
[/quote]

[quote name='Birdsofafeather' post='53784' date='November 14 2006, 06:32 PM'] That's why I said 'to me'. CJ has posted on several occasions that he WANTS criticism, and I'm providing it for something that to me, as a reader, would probably lead me away from a story. I've mentioned time and again that I like his style of writing, and the plotline of this particular story really does appeal to me; I'm just pointing out something that I think needs to be adressed. Perhaps a PM next time? ;D.[/quote]

And I'll say it again: Yes, I do want criticisms!

I love what all of you are saying here, and really appreciate each of you more than you can know, so to avoid misunderstandings I'll come clean: Yes, last week I got slightly frustrated, becuase I'm new at this and didn't know how to handle one specific situation: criticism of the plot that, while very valid based on what the reader has seen, is covered in upcoming chapters. I couldn't reply without giving spoilers, and I felt bad becuase it looked like I was "ignoring" very valid points. I didn't know what to do and that was slightly frustrating, but that is past now and was never anyone's fault but my own.

So, to prevent it happening in future, let me just say this: I may not reply to everything, and if I don't it might be becuase I agree with you, or it might be becuase I can't reply without spoilers.

Birds (for fully understandable reasons: IE the Author was deceiving him intentionally) thoguht that the climax was in chapter one, but Birds also pointed out my character intro problem for the freinds, and after thinking it over I think he is absolutely right!

[quote]Would a newcomer know this? I doubt it.
Would they continue reading? Perhaps, perhaps not. I know I wouldn't. I've left stories after reading maybe 3 sentences because of the discouraging content. I don't want that to happen to CJ's story, because CJ's a great author.[/quote]Wow. Thanks you, though you have finally said something (those last five words) I disagree with! LoL!

I do agree about the new readers issue. That has been weighing on my mind since this story was in rough draft mode. The problem is that, due to what I want to do (and not even my Editor or Beta reader have seen that far ahead, as those chapters are still in draft stage) I felt I had to kick things off this way. I can't really say more on that right now. You do however have a very valid point.

I'm not adverse to a re-write, so I'd like to re-visit this idea after around chapter 9 and see if anyone has any thoughts on what I should have done differently.[/quote]

[quote name='Graeme' post='53789' date='November 14 2006, 06:54 PM']I wasn't going to jump in on this, but a certain reclusive goat keeps calling me a postaholic so I supposed I'd better try to live up to the reputation....
I agree, to some extent. I didn't see a reason for the friend introductions at that point, but I didn't say anything because it was possible that they would become relevant soon afterwards. However, chapter two doesn't mention them at all, so I think that the introductions could've been moved to another point. Maybe mention them by name, but I'm not sure it was worthwhile going bang, bang, bang with a mention and short section of each one.[/quote]

100% agreed on how I intro'ed each one. Very porly done with the mention and short section. I need to work on that.

[quote name='Graeme' post='53789' date='November 14 2006, 06:54 PM']In almost every story I can think of there are fast, action-packed chapters, and slower, recovery chapters. Between them they lead the reader up to a conclusion. How to pace things is difficult to describe, so we have to trust to the author's judgement on this. It may be he has it slightly wrong, but until we see the rest of the story we can't be sure. He may have it spot on, or has even (hopefully not) made the start of the story too bland for the rest (*fingers crossed that this isn't the case, because I don't think I'd be able to handle it*).[/quote]



[quote name='Graeme' post='53789' date='November 14 2006, 06:54 PM']Edit: I've just noticed your comment about it being a possible turn-off for a new reader and why. I have to agree with you there. Chapter two doesn't provide any indication that it's not going to be "just another best friends become lovers" story. I'm trusting C James that it won't be, but maybe some sort of hint in chapter two would've helped.[/quote]

Good point!! I will assure everyone that it isn't, but do see that I should have made that clear in the chapter.

[quote name='DarkShadow' post='53790' date='November 14 2006, 07:08 PM']Like I said above... if we're getting great criticism.. we might as well maximize it. Get the most from it we can. Than again... goats are thick skinned... someone get the ball peen hammer... we'll beat it in![/quote]

Ouch!!!!! Oh, my aching hide!!!

I just want to finish up by saying that I really, really appreciate each and every one of you, and value everything you say. Just please be aware that there are aspects I feel I shouldn't discuss yet, plus some intentional misdirections in the story and plot. Don't let this deter you from critisizing, though, as some of the points have been spot-on and excelent, and have been taken to heart by me.

Thank you all!

Edit to add: I cross posted with Birds and Dark Shadow earlier in the thread, sorry for any confusion!

C James, there's another thing that I've raised with you in a PM, but I thought I'd mention in public now.

You are writing a STORY -- not a serial novel where readers MUST wait before the next chapter is due out. The ONLY time they have to wait is while the story is in the progress of being posted/written.

There is NOTHING wrong with posting several chapters, or even the entire story, at once. If you are writing on the assumption that the readers will have to wait between chapters, then you're doing yourself an injustice because a large percentage of readers will simply go onto the next chapter because they'll be reading the story AFTER it has been finished. (I'm assuming you'll be leaving it here after it's finished, for new members to find).

The only thing I've done (I think) that is dependant upon the "wait" factor for full effectiveness is a few cliffhangers (mainly due to where I decided to break the chapters). However, a lot of authors use cliffhangers, so I feel OK doing that.

I think (and hope) that reading it stright through will give a good effect. The reason I'm doing weekly posts is that I only have half a dozen (including what is posted) edited and ready to post. If I get further ahead I wil speed up the posting rate, but I need the buffer as delays may occur. Also, I am using the critisisim received to make changes to future chapters, so it is helping. At the moment, my beta reader hasn';t even seen chapter 6 (the seventh chapter due to the prologue) yet so I really can't speed up posting at the moment.

So, I'm obviously coming into this discussion late, but I really like the story and wanted to comment. I like the story so far, but I agree with those who think a reader might see it as a dark story climaxing too early. But I trust you CJ!

I really liked the being in love with the car, even though my limited knowledge leaves me with no idea of what he's describing.

A line in the prologue really bugged me: "I’ve been told that I’m no slouch in the looks department myself, but I knew that Steve had me soundly beat in that department." It was really awkward to me to use the word "department" twice in one sentence.

"I’d stood in a large crowd, trying as hard as I could to get my first “ping”, but try as I might, I got nothing." Do people actually do this?

In chapter 1, this line seemed awkward to me: "They had made me a little nervous at first, as both were bodybuilders who often dressing like bikers, with attitudes to match."

Besides those items, I like it a lot and will be looking forward to more.

Thanks CJ!

Edited to add: I love the disclaimer!

Hi Matthew!!

Good point on the "department" being used twice! That does not look good. Thanks!

As for standing in a crowd trying to get a "ping", I dont know how common that is, but I know I tried to do exactly that several times when I first heard about "gaydar". (and mine is far worse than Chris').

And that last line you quoted is VERY awkward! UGH! I really need to work on things like that so they don't happen again.
ACK, I even see that I have "dressing" instead of "dressed", but even had I used "dressed", it's STILL awkward!!!!!!!! I'll definitly fix that in the posted version ASAP! THANK YOU!

THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
CJ

I was surprised and happy with this chapter. I suspected that Steve was gay, but I was very surprised to see Chris and Steve confessing their love to each other at this early stage. At the same time I was happy that the story is not about their struggle to come out to each other and not about Steve’s struggle with his parents. That would have been a cliché to me. Now that their love for each other is no longer a secret/problem to them, and also Steve’s parents are not a problem, the story can go to many possible directions.

Many good stories that I read have several climaxes, and to me a good story is not like a mountain, but more like a chain of mountains with many peaks. So I am glad that the first climax was not dragged for too many chapters. This means that there are more climaxes to come.

Is it possible that a story with the name “For The Love” is not actually a love story, but maybe a story about what people are willing to do for the love. Or maybe it is about something totally different, I really can’t tell at this point. But if it was just a love story, then this chapter (Ch. 2) would be a good place to end the story. So I am quite sure that this is not a love story but much more than that.

What is even more interesting for me than the love between Chris and Steve is how they are going to deal with Eric. Maybe Eric will become a big part of this story. I am really glad that the issues which are cliché (coming out and parents) are no longer an issue and more interesting stuff is about to come.

Awesome job C James.

Hugs,
Michael.

Moving off-topic for a moment, I was interested in Michael's comment.

I wouldn't say these are cliché as much as being sub-genres of gay fiction that have been done so many times that it's a struggle to make a story original. That doesn't mean that stories of this type can't be popular. If you look at the romantic genre in printed books you would have to think that it's been done to death, but those books are still popular.

There is nothing wrong with writing a story centred on coming out or struggling with parents, and it could be wildly successful, but the odds are that after it's finished it'll drift back into obscurity. There's probably nothing wrong with it, it's just that it's very difficult to stand out from the crowd.

Just my opinion, of course.

Graeme

That's basically why I did it. The story isn't about blackmail, or about coming out or their relationship. I needed to get them to this point, which is why I used a prologue to cover the preceding months "backstory".

I've seen quite a few stories where the initial "set up" of the characters and situation takes several chapters and can be a bit dull (no offence to anyone who does this, and this is just my opinion). So, what I was trying to do was use a sub-plot to make it a bit more interesting.



Thanks!! I hope it will be enjoyable and fun.



I can take no credit for the title. My wonderful editor, Emoe, thoguht it up, but he hasn't seen most of the story. I had a heck of a time naming it (and failed) because everything I could think of either gave away too much, was too misleading, or just plain stank. This story very nearly went online with the title "Insert Title Here". I was a bit worried about "for the Love" as a title becuase it does sound like a love story, and though love is am underlying theme it isn't the main one.



Thank you!!!

I will give a teaser here: The title of the next chapter is "Get the Rope...". Anyone want to speculate on what that means?


A sure sign of a postaholic!


I completely agree on all counts. This is one of the reasons I chose not to do such a story; it's just too hard to make it original. Those are also not my favorite themes for a story (as a reader) so I went... elsewhere...

My first thought was: they are going to hang Eric, a lynch.

But seriously, I think that Steve and Chris will tie him up and play some prank on him to scare him to death and teach him a lesson. Maybe they'll put Eric in the trunk and drive to some deserted place.

I have some other ideas for a prank that involve a rope, but they are too sick to mention here.

Hugs,
Michael.

My first thought was the same, but I doubt C James will be that obvious. Another possibility is that Eric tells everyone he's been threatening to tell, and THEY are the ones getting the rope to lynch Steve and Chris. In either case we're assuming the title has something to do with what has been revealed so far. It's quite possible it refers to something that is only revealed in the next chapter.

Speculation is fun, but I think I'll wait and see what the goat regurgulates next week....

I proffered that title after reading the Prologue and 5 chapters. I suggested several but that is the one CJ jumped on. Only CJ has a clue where this story is headed… but I’ll say this about the car, um, well, never mind!


If anybody would know, it would be CJ!