[paya]

 Hi,

I'd like to post my notes I made while reading your story, Altimexis, and since no one found a thread for it, I hope it's OK if I do now. This story was for me, along with Nephy's  and Libby's, in top 3 stories submitted for the contest. Again, I deleted the numbers (they can be too distracting  ). Mind you that the notes can be pretty hard for someone but I simply wrote down what I felt, how the story was impacting me.

    
• Hook. Sometime the    story is dragging enormously...    the story has no drive.... I wasn't hooked before    David was injured. On the other hand, it's a nice and pleasurable reading for an afternoon of lazy reading.
• Characters are quite    realistic, mainly in the second part of the story. At the    beginning they seem to me to be too mature – but that can be their    characteristic feature. I believed them what they said (almost every    time). And I care for them.
• Plot. Plot is interesting    because of its religious aspect and all the complications linked    with that. The story itself is rich on information about Jewish    traditions and the author really knows the environment in which he    set the characters. Though I can't imagine anything specific that    would really capture my attention.  
• Value. The value of this story    lies in the description of a specific world/universe of the Jewish    society and the problems that Jewish gays can have (and possibly do    have). It's a great depiction of the life and traditions I barely come in touch with - so the informative value increases as well.
• Overall was only a number. Though I must add that the story was coherent, logically tied between the scenes and I thoroughly enjoyed reading it.

Now when I'm reading these remarks again, I think I'm repeating myself in points 3 and 4 but this can also be seen as a sort of a statement about the story. I'll add my favourite scene - Danny's rage when he reads the newspaper, runs to the synagogue and has an argument with David's father. That was really... wow.  

Edit: I had to fix the mess the pasting from OpenOffice made in the format of the post. Well, at least the numbering... 

This post has been edited by paya: 17 November 2009 - 06:48 AM

[Rilbur]

I already said this in a PM, but what the heck

Fish out of Water was my favorite story out of the five, the one I felt should have gotten first. This isn't intended as a slam against any of the other authors, Neph and Libby wrote some great stories of their own. I will grant you that the 'hook' wasn't as strong as those two stories, but the vitality and power of the characters was unbelievable. The story held a power and a strength I didn't expect to find in a generic 'boy meets boy' type of story. The only flaw was the occasional place where a non-English word was used and not explained (the only one I really remember is towards the end of the story). The ending was powerful, imaginative, moving, and completely unique... not to mention unexpected.

Thanks for the wonderful story!

[Nephylim]

I also have to add that I really liked this story. I was absolutely fascinated with the descriptions of Jewish life and customs. The use on non english words were not in any way a problem for me but only added flavour to the story.

I liked the characters very much and was drawn into their world and their sitaution very quickly.

The political situation with Israel was very senstively but also powerfully handled and I was completely absorbed in it and caught up in the emotions. Maybe that has something to do with my feelings about my own country. Perhaps people who have not been disinherited can never really understand. But whatever I loved it.

The scene when David was in the hospital and Danny visited and found out he had lost his hand was very touching and extremely powerful.

As I have said... I really loved the story. Thank you for giving me this window into a different world

[jenni]

I really loved this story. It was well-researched and the plot kept me interested. I love a story that not only entertains me but helps me learn something, and this story definitely did that. I learned so much about the Jewish faith as well as the locations of Baltimore, New York City and Israel. It was obvious that you put a lot of work into the story.

Once I started reading, I couldn't stop until I was through the whole thing!


Now that I know who wrote it, I will be sure to check out some of your other stories. I see that many of your stories are set in Indy, which will be interesting to me since that is my neck of the woods.

[Altimexis]

Wow! Thanks so much for all your wonderful comments.

Paya, I particularly appreciate your constructive criticism. All too often, readers are reluctant to post any negative thoughts, but not every story can be "above average", and the only way we as authors can improve is to hear the truth. When I wrote my first story, Love in a Chair, nearly every comment I received was effusive except for that from one reader, who wrote that the characters were one-dimensional. From that one reader and his lengthy critique I learned a lot. Today, I endeavor to give all of my characters a life outside of the central plot - to give them depth. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts with me and to start this thread!

It's interesting that the use of Yiddish and Hebrew words was an issue for some, and I don't doubt that it cost me some readers. These words are commonly used in New York, even by non-Jews, and many have made their way into the general American lexicon, but would be unfamiliar to readers from outside the U.S. Both of my editors had difficulty with the terminology, and I came up with the brilliant strategy of including mouse-over definitions and even Wikipedia links where appropriate. Unfortunately, not long before the deadline, I found out that mouse-overs were strictly not allowed and even external links were discouraged. Because I raised the issue in the contest forum, I decided to remove all links, as being the only author to use them would have breached my anonymity. Instead, I attempted to add English translations as much as practical, and to make meanings more or less obvious from their use in context. I had to be very careful how I did this, as I wanted to be sure my characters remained "in character". I hope I succeeded.

Finally, I want to make it clear that this story is but one view of Jewish life. Jews are about as diverse as are Christians, and I share about as much in common with the beliefs of the characters in this story as would a liberal, non-observant Lutheran with a fundamentalist Evangelical Christian. That I could write this story reflects the amount of time spent reading about my religion when I was younger, and the fact that my sister-in-law's family is Orthodox and in fact lives in Baltimore. Also, as mentioned in the introduction, the character of David was inspired by a Hassidic boy that I've seen on his skateboard on the Lower East Side of New York. The real boy is somewhat younger than my character, so I did make some allowances for the story as it needed to be.

By the way, if you haven't read my Naptown Tales series, please check out the following stories, which tell the tale of a Muslim boy who falls in love with a Jewish boy - My First Thanksgiving, The Un-Christmas, You Can Go Home Again, but Should You?, and The Future Starts Now.

Thanks again for all your comments, and if you learned something, then I more than succeeded in telling my story.

[Rilbur]

Quote

Because I raised the issue in the contest forum, I decided to remove all links, as being the only author to use them would have breached my anonymity.

Pssst... being the only author whose work needed them also managed that

Overall, I really didn't have any trouble with you're use of those words, the problem was towards the end where you didn't add a definition. I don't likes that, no I don't.

[Altimexis]

Rilbur, on 18 November 2009 - 11:54 AM, said:

Overall, I really didn't have any trouble with you're use of those words, the problem was towards the end where you didn't add a definition. I don't likes that, no I don't.

Geez, I'm sorry if I missed some. I thought I went through the story with a fine-tooth comb and made sure each word was defined at least twice previously before I left out explanations with subsequent usage. There's a fine line between underdoing it and overdoing it, and perhaps for this one I needed to err on the side of overdoing it.

[Libby Drew]

Hi Altimexis! I'm so glad to see a thread for your story. For a while, I was afraid there wouldn't be one.

I found Fish Out of Water to be fascinating. It's one thing to be familiar with a topic, but to see it brought to life so vividly in a fictional setting, that was really special. The amount of research must have been dizzying. I ate up every little detail. The truth is I'm a sucker for stories like this, that are so rich with history and ritual. I wouldn't give a second thought to whether or not some words were defined adequately. There was plenty of context in the surrounding story to help me out whenever I needed clarification, which wasn't very often. You did a smooth job of filling in explanations when needed. As a rule, they didn't feel out of place in the slightest.

The plot broke my heart in places, which is a testament to how beautifully you brought the characters to life. They were easy to identify with, and to care for. Fish Out of Water reminds us that the world is full of obstacles, and that the hardest ones aren't always tied to our sexuality. Perspective and hope. That's what you gave us with this story.

Thank you very much for all your hard work.

[Rilbur]

Altimexis, on 18 November 2009 - 09:43 AM, said:

Geez, I'm sorry if I missed some. I thought I went through the story with a fine-tooth comb and made sure each word was defined at least twice previously before I left out explanations with subsequent usage. There's a fine line between underdoing it and overdoing it, and perhaps for this one I needed to err on the side of overdoing it.

It was a once-off word towards the end... I'll track it down for you next time I read the story.

[wildone]

Altimexis,

Thank you so very much for submitting this story to the contest.

When I voted, I too voted this to be my favourite for several reasons.

First off the characters were developed quite strongly I believe. Everyone who was a major player in the story started out with an introduction that piqued my interest and then followed up with more detail making the character more dynamic. The way you introduced David skateboarding dressed in Hasidic clothing and red side curls made him even more interesting.

Second thing was that I actually learned something from your story. Your explanations of the different sects of Judaism made for an informative read. I agree with your comment about how diverse the beliefs can be yet they are essentially the same.

Third thing was the apparent amount of research that you must of done for this story. The correct medical terms and drug names for David's arm amputation was amazing. As a lead up to my next comment, my compliments for not overdoing these parts. You gave just enough information to complete the scene/story, and didn't bore the reader with more in depth technical knowledge.

The last thing has to do with your comments earlier about Love in a Chair, and what I immediately thought after in knew you wrote the story. Looking back you have grown so much, and have become a great story teller. I remember reading your weekly postings of serial, and I agreed with some of the criticism where you maybe didn't know at what point to cut off the description, yet still get a point across. Since this I believe is your first story involving a medical situation since that last story, I applaud you for taking the comments and critiques and applying them to this story and making it so much more enjoyable to read. To see the improvement makes me feel even better to have had the opportunity to experience both your earlier but your current works as well.

Well done Altimexis, take a bow .

[Altimexis]

What can I say to reply to all the wonderful comments? I am sincerely humbled, even though I didn't place well. I put a lot into this story, and am proud of what I accomplished, even if the story wasn't everyone's cup of tea. I feel I have indeed grown a lot as an author since I wrote my first story, Love in a Chair. I am also fortunate to have an outstanding editor and proofreader. Both David of Hope and Alastair contributed greatly to the end result - pointing out terminology and situations that needed more explanation.

Thanks again or all your comments!

[hombre]

Altimexis, on 19 November 2009 - 05:15 PM, said:

What can I say to reply to all the wonderful comments? I am sincerely humbled, even though I didn't place well. I put a lot into this story, and am proud of what I accomplished, even if the story wasn't everyone's cup of tea. I feel I have indeed grown a lot as an author since I wrote my first story, Love in a Chair. I am also fortunate to have an outstanding editor and proofreader. Both David of Hope and Alastair contributed greatly to the end result - pointing out terminology and situations that needed more explanation.

Thanks again or all your comments!

Alt - this story was AMAZING!! I loved it! Being from NY myself originally, I totally got all the Jewish references and jargon without the added help, and the way alot of the Jewish characters acted, OMG!!! So on target! !LOL!! Keep it up!!

[srchr35]

Altamexis:

I just had a chance to find more of Fish Out of Water on GA.
It was great to read it as a whole work.
It was such a good story.
Thanks,

Terry

[Gearoid]

Altimexis, on 18 November 2009 - 02:06 PM, said:

Wow! Thanks so much for all your wonderful comments.

Paya, I particularly appreciate your constructive criticism. All too often, readers are reluctant to post any negative thoughts, but not every story can be "above average", and the only way we as authors can improve is to hear the truth. When I wrote my first story, Love in a Chair, nearly every comment I received was effusive except for that from one reader, who wrote that the characters were one-dimensional. From that one reader and his lengthy critique I learned a lot. Today, I endeavor to give all of my characters a life outside of the central plot - to give them depth. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts with me and to start this thread!

It's interesting that the use of Yiddish and Hebrew words was an issue for some, and I don't doubt that it cost me some readers. These words are commonly used in New York, even by non-Jews, and many have made their way into the general American lexicon, but would be unfamiliar to readers from outside the U.S. Both of my editors had difficulty with the terminology, and I came up with the brilliant strategy of including mouse-over definitions and even Wikipedia links where appropriate. Unfortunately, not long before the deadline, I found out that mouse-overs were strictly not allowed and even external links were discouraged. Because I raised the issue in the contest forum, I decided to remove all links, as being the only author to use them would have breached my anonymity. Instead, I attempted to add English translations as much as practical, and to make meanings more or less obvious from their use in context. I had to be very careful how I did this, as I wanted to be sure my characters remained "in character". I hope I succeeded.

Finally, I want to make it clear that this story is but one view of Jewish life. Jews are about as diverse as are Christians, and I share about as much in common with the beliefs of the characters in this story as would a liberal, non-observant Lutheran with a fundamentalist Evangelical Christian. That I could write this story reflects the amount of time spent reading about my religion when I was younger, and the fact that my sister-in-law's family is Orthodox and in fact lives in Baltimore. Also, as mentioned in the introduction, the character of David was inspired by a Hassidic boy that I've seen on his skateboard on the Lower East Side of New York. The real boy is somewhat younger than my character, so I did make some allowances for the story as it needed to be.

By the way, if you haven't read my Naptown Tales series, please check out the following stories, which tell the tale of a Muslim boy who falls in love with a Jewish boy - My First Thanksgiving, The Un-Christmas, You Can Go Home Again, but Should You?, and The Future Starts Now.

Thanks again for all your comments, and if you learned something, then I more than succeeded in telling my story.

[Gearoid]

Loved this. Read it straight thru from Ch 5 this morning. Very emotional ending and it really captured me but then I have always been a victim of "happiness binding" when it comes to fiction. Hate to be effusive but this was a beautiful story. Of course I had political disagreements with you at various stages, but then I am an Old Leftist. But the sheer humanity of the piece shone thru and it was good to get such an insight to an aspect of Jewish culture. Would that the world was that way. Thank you.

regards

G.

[old bob]

Shalom,
I came fortuitously to you story through AwesomeDude and enjoyed it very much. I suppose the title "a fish out of water" has certainly a precise sense for you. At least, it has one for me. Living all my youth-years from 1933 till 1945 with part of my family in France and part in Germany, I made my Bar Mitzvah in Geneva in 1943, with my parents no really religious Jews but thinking that I should get a strict religious education, as their answer to the fate of the Jewish people and the persecutions they had to endure.
Later, I couldnt support the 613 rules an orthodox Jew has to follow and I abandoned my religion. But I'm still feeling myself as Jew, though a very liberal one, and your story brought back a lot of memories, some nice and some sad.
I followed the first 6 chapters of your story, all together. I'm impatient to read more.
You are not only a good writer, you are also a born teacher. The way you describe the life of orthodox jews and the glossary you brought are both wery explicit for the goyim .
Expecting the next chapter very soon, I remain
your Friend
Old Bob

[Altimexis]

old bob, on 13 February 2010 - 03:46 PM, said:

Shalom,
I came fortuitously to you story through AwesomeDude and enjoyed it very much. . . .
I followed the first 6 chapters of your story, all together. I'm impatient to read more.
You are not only a good writer, you are also a born teacher. The way you describe the life of orthodox jews and the glossary you brought are both wery explicit for the goyim .
Expecting the next chapter very soon, I remain
your Friend
Old Bob

Thanks for your wonderful comments, old friend. Since you've posted this in my forum at GA, I'd like to point out that all ten chapters of Fish Out of Water are on-line on my GayAuthors site. Here's the link.

Take care,
Altimexis