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The Gauntlet, by TetRefine


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What I'm saying is that there's nothing wrong telling the "same old story," if you can do it in a way that allows the reader to experience those "fundamental things" afresh.

 

I really love how you focused on the emotions/experience the reader feels, and not the possible repetitive nature of the theme.  So very true.

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Who died and made you the fucking expert?  :joe:

 

*Reads through Adam's post, grumbling like an old man*  (If the shoe fits...)

 

 

The nice thing is that nobody had to die to make me the fucking expert! It's a naturally-occurring phenomenon and no humans or animals were harmed.  :P

 

Seriously for a moment: My first (and only) editor (remember Budd, Mark?) was a guy who edited books and screenplays for a living. I wouldn't have known how to put into words my intuition for what makes for strong writing, but he gave me the words and the concepts, and I've tried to learn from them. I don't produce much, but thanks to Budd, what I do write is reasonably solid, and the tools and insights I got from him served me so well that I make the bulk of my living these days writing for pay. Granted, it's not fiction, but good writing is good writing. The other thing is that I know my own weaknesses and liabilities as a writer--much better now than when I started--and so by this point I'm a pretty ruthless self-editor. Another freakin' genius of a reader taught me, ruthlessly, the hard lesson of needing to kill my babies. Thanks to him, I drowned most of them in the lake. Someday I'll go back into Crosscurrents and kill the ugly ones that survived, but I think readers would rather I produce new stuff than edit endlessly.

 

Anyway...Yes, I've expressed to you before my preference for stories that have a beginning, a conflict, an ascent, a high point, a descent, and ending, and yes, I've noted that not all of yours do. But hell, you're the freakin King of GA! Why should it even matter? And beyond that, you have a perfectly wonderful little narrative in The Box that does a perfectly wonderful job of traditional storytelling. Milennium does, too, for the most part. So it's not like you don't know how to do it. I haven't read enough of your newer stuff to know what you're up to on that front these days, but regarding my opinion that you don't always (and remember, they're like assholes: Everybody has one!), instead of grumbling like an old man, why not just say you and I are interested in two different kinds of writing and reading? Any why not add, "Hmm...I see your point. I'll consider it as I tally your followers and mine, and your Reader's Choice Awards and mine"?

 

And then come back to bed and we can continue where we left off. :devil:

 

Oh, and sorry, Tet, to have hijacked this thread with a retort to Arbour; let me excuse myself by putting on the 8-year-old pout, pointing my finger, and saying, "He started it!"

Edited by Adam Phillips
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   Yeah, don't mind Mark and Adam, Matt- as Adam put it, "Mark and I have been friends since you (meaning myself) were jacking off to Nick Carter." (Not true- it was Nick Lachey, but you get the idea.)

 

   As for Adam...dude, just remember...I know where the bodies are buried. Just sayin'. :evil::devil::evil:

 

   In terms of the lead character, I think he's a bit 2-d in the sense that all we really know about him is that he plays lacrosse, is from Boston, and has parents that would deeply disapprove of him being gay, but that's kind of it. What motivates the guy? What are his dreams? His insecurities? What are his flaws, and what are his strengths? That's something I'll enjoy getting to know as we go through the story.

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It's wide of the mark to call a character "2-D" at this stage of the story. That's like going through a house in the early stages of construction and complaining that the floors are bare concrete. For where we are in the story, there's already been a tantalizing lot of things revealed about the lead character.

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Oh, and sorry, Tet, to have hijacked this thread with a retort to Arbour; let me excuse myself by putting on the 8-year-old pout, pointing my finger, and saying, "He started it!"

 

Its all good. I'm just happy people are finally participating in the thread. I like that. I'm jealous of Arbour because his guys are as intense in his story forums as the old Soapboxers used to be debating politics. :P

 

 In terms of the lead character, I think he's a bit 2-d in the sense that all we really know about him is that he plays lacrosse, is from Boston, and has parents that would deeply disapprove of him being gay, but that's kind of it. What motivates the guy? What are his dreams? His insecurities? What are his flaws, and what are his strengths? That's something I'll enjoy getting to know as we go through the story.

 

I mean, I made his fear of being possibly gay a center point of his motivations in the first chapter. Also, I thought I made it kinda obvious that one of his serious flaws was his inability to realize the obvious about his sexuality. I mean, its already so obvious to the reader but he is still oblivious to it. :P But next chapter you will find out more about what motivates him. One of the reasons I chose to rewrite chapter three was because I didn't think it conveyed some of those things to a point I could be happy with. 

 

It's wide of the mark to call a character "2-D" at this stage of the story. That's like going through a house in the early stages of construction and complaining that the floors are bare concrete. For where we are in the story, there's already been a tantalizing lot of things revealed about the lead character.

 

Pretty much this. 

Edited by TetRefine
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I love your latest. My humble opinion. It's interesting. * shrugs* :) my take.

 

Thanks! It was a damn hard chapter to write, and one that took several rewrites before it came out polished enough for publishing. I think this chapter sets up how Mark has two very different faces. The calm, normal persona he displays to the world, and then a deeply angry frustration with life that he keeps hidden until it eventually boils over. 

Edited by TetRefine
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   I appreciate authors who take the risk of making their protagonists unlikeable. That's risky. And way more interesting that stories that have these perfect, unbelievable protagonists who don't remotely resemble 18-year old guys.

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   I appreciate authors who take the risk of making their protagonists unlikeable. That's risky. And way more interesting that stories that have these perfect, unbelievable protagonists who don't remotely resemble 18-year old guys.

 

Yeah, I honestly don't care about popularity of my story. I'm being selfish, and writing the way I want to write. :P Like you said, gay fiction is saturated with unbelievable characters who are so unflawed its nauseating. Its one of the reasons I stay away from the abundance of teen romance stories. I think the key is to make them flawed enough to be realistic, but not so flawed that it drives everyone from the story. 

 

I like to think Andy in Crosscurrents fits this bill (can you tell I love that story :P ). There were some chapters where I wished I could have dragged his ass out back and kicked his teeth in, but I mostly was able to sympathize with him and understand why he did the things he did throughout the story. 

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I like to think Andy in Crosscurrents fits this bill (can you tell I love that story :P ). There were some chapters where I wished I could have dragged his ass out back and kicked his teeth in, but I mostly was able to sympathize with him and understand why he did the things he did throughout the story. 

 

    I think Andy is fascinating in this sense- empathy for other people didn't come easily for him the way it did for his best friend, Matt. Yes, if he loved you, you had his heart. But when it came to the people he DIDN'T care about, Andy could be pretty callous, especially junior high and high school Andy. We saw shades of that in how Andy ripped into a guy over a silly playground game, and Andy's general high school attitude about really enjoying his popularity/Alpha Male Status but not giving a shit about the people who were outcasts.

 

    Because of Matt's example, by college Andy really tried to be more empathetic- we saw that most clearly with the gay teammate. He tries to work at it, but it's not something that comes easy to him.

 

    Andy has, as a part of him, this really mean, cruel side of him that likes to see how much he can hurt another person. It's not a big part of him, but it's there, and it's fascinating to when the two sides of Andy- the one who tries hard to follow Matt's example and can be a very loving person, and the kid who tried to humiliate Josh for missing a basket, collide with each other.

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  • 1 month later...

  Andy has, as a part of him, this really mean, cruel side of him that likes to see how much he can hurt another person. It's not a big part of him, but it's there, and it's fascinating to when the two sides of Andy- the one who tries hard to follow Matt's example and can be a very loving person, and the kid who tried to humiliate Josh for missing a basket, collide with each other.

 

Okay, watch it there, buddy, I know exactly what you're doing here.

 

There are times when a person doesn't need to be told the truth.  :P

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Yeah, I honestly don't care about popularity of my story. I'm being selfish, and writing the way I want to write. :P Like you said, gay fiction is saturated with unbelievable characters who are so unflawed its nauseating. Its one of the reasons I stay away from the abundance of teen romance stories. I think the key is to make them flawed enough to be realistic, but not so flawed that it drives everyone from the story. 

 

I like to think Andy in Crosscurrents fits this bill (can you tell I love that story :P ). There were some chapters where I wished I could have dragged his ass out back and kicked his teeth in, but I mostly was able to sympathize with him and understand why he did the things he did throughout the story. 

 

I haven't read your latest chapter yet (sorry!), so I can't comment on it. But you're right; it's a fine line to walk.

 

Fortunately, if you keep "real life" in your head and go by it, you can have some guidance. Very few people are "all good" or "all bad" in the real world. Most are an interesting mixture. Just try to imagine how your characters would be in real life. Think about them and their everyday worlds. Imagine them in situations that you have no intention of putting in your story. Make them real in your head, good points and bad points alike.

 

Btw, for what it's worth, I wanted to bash Andy's head in with a rock from time to time. :unsure: It was easy to make him "real." It was harder to make Matt real--for some very personal reasons--and so I think I've flirted with portraying Matt as too much of a saint to be believable. Still, you can see hints of some of his character flaws in the story.

 

Anyway, I'm always glad when anyone likes Crosscurrents. And I promise I'll get to your new chapter real soon!

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Okay, watch it there, buddy, I know exactly what you're doing here.

 

There are times when a person doesn't need to be told the truth.  :P

 

  I'm not doing anything, Adam. I'm just talking about the very realistic character flaw that you put in the character of Andy.

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So for those of you still following, I have gotten a solid start on Chapter 4, and will hopefully have it done by mid-week, and have it edited and finalized for early next week or so. I'm sorry I went on a bit of hiatus, but ever since spring break ended I have been swamped with school work. Now since my two biggest things are over with, I'll have more time to devote to writing again. The good thing about the hiatus is that taking all that time off from writing has swelled my head with ideas on where I want to take Mark and the rest of the story. I've been so excited to finally get these ideas on paper, and I think you'll like the next couple of chapters I have planned out.

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