Taboo subject: Incest

[BuffyWillow]

I recently contacted one of the author's on this site because I really like the story they have posted here. I asked them if they're working on any other stories and they said 'yes', but are apprehensive about posting it because it deals with incest between brothers. They have a beta reader but are unsure if the beta reader would be open to reading what they have written so far because of the subject. I told them to talk to their beta reader but they want their beta reader to focus on just the one story they're working on together for the time being.  

 

Now, I'm not into the whole incest scene, but I like this writer's writing. After serious persuading, they sent me a copy of the first two chapters, and it's unbelievable. They should post it on the site. It's darker because it delves into obsession involving the older brother for his younger brother.

 

I really would like to read more and I think this site would be an amazing platform for the author to post. We've had several conversations about what they should do. They already know what my opinion is and that's to post the story here at GA.

 

Are there any other members on this site who would be open to reading this story if the author were to post it? If the author can get honest feedback from all of you, maybe they'll decide to throw caution to the wind and go ahead and post it. Then maybe the author can get their beta reader involved because from what the author tells me, they have an amazing working connection.

 

 

What do you think they should?

 

 

 

 

[joann414]

I've read several stories here that deal with incest.  In fact, I'm reading one now.   It's great too.  Daddydavek's new story. "had to give him a plug" 

In my opinion, if the author has a great relationship with their beta, the by all means, I'd ask and if their regular beta isn't comfortable doing it, I'm sure we could find them another beta.  I'm not super busy myself and would be willing to help.  I'm sure others will read it.

 

That's my two cents worth.

Edited July 26, 2014 by joann414

[BuffyWillow]

They haven't brought the topic to their beta reader but I really hope that they will. I'll tell the author what you said about being a beta reader for them for this story, if they do decide to post.

[wildone]

I don't want to speak on behalf of all the staff here, but will weigh in with some cautions regarding the topic of incest.

 

First off, incest in most countries is illegal. That being said, my concern is more about the influence of an older sibling, parent, authority figure over the other participant. If for arguments sake the older sibling (as you have outlined it being siblings) is over the age of majority and the younger is not, than this is definitely illegal. Age is a touchy subject. In most Western countries, the younger participant is unable to make a decision, wrong or right, to be in a relationship with an older person.

 

What can further complicate this is if the illegal act (age) is glorified as being right and good. This would definitely make the story subject to moderator review and possibly not being allowed to be posted here.

 

We, as staff, try to look at the whole story and not just the fact that it deals with incest. To dismiss on that fact alone would make quite a few stories ineligible for posting here.

 

Lastly, if you are suggesting to this author to post the story, a lot of problems could be avoided ahead of time by submitting for a review by the Forum Moderation Team or Cia.

 

A full list of people to contact is here.

 

Hopefully this will avoid any problems ahead of time

[joann414]

I don't want to speak on behalf of all the staff here, but will weigh in with some cautions regarding the topic of incest.

 

First off, incest in most countries is illegal. That being said, my concern is more about the influence of an older sibling, parent, authority figure over the other participant. If for arguments sake the older sibling (as you have outlined it being siblings) is over the age of majority and the younger is not, than this is definitely illegal. Age is a touchy subject. In most Western countries, the younger participant is unable to make a decision, wrong or right, to be in a relationship with an older person.

 

What can further complicate this is if the illegal act (age) is glorified as being right and good. This would definitely make the story subject to moderator review and possibly not being allowed to be posted here.

 

We, as staff, try to look at the whole story and not just the fact that it deals with incest. To dismiss on that fact alone would make quite a few stories ineligible for posting here.

 

Lastly, if you are suggesting to this author to post the story, a lot of problems could be avoided ahead of time by submitting for a review by the Forum Moderation Team or Cia.

 

A full list of people to contact is here.

 

Hopefully this will avoid any problems ahead of time

When I suggested, I knew it would have to go through the channels.  I should have elaborated.  sorry.

[Krista]

There are taboos that a lot of people just won't touch, reading or writing. With that said, if it is well written, there is an audience for it out there somewhere. It has been done here before, so it's not like GA has nothing to offer a story like this. If the author is concerned about how people will 'treat' the story and 'think' about them as the author, maybe they should do some research and ask other authors here that have brought up the subject matter in their stories. GA has a nice organization system with Stories, so if they are worried about how their established readers would treat this story - then the author can warn them. I believe Incest is one of the tags they can use. At least then they can warn away readers that wouldn't typically like the story and bring in readers that will. So they're not shocking their fans if the story seemed out of left field from what they typically do.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Krista

[BuffyWillow]

The story is well written. The author is surprised that they're in the midst of writing an incest story. The initial concept was about obsession in a relationship but evolved into incest obsession involving a nineteen year old and his twenty year old brother. I'll take all of your suggestions to the author and let them make a decision from there. Thank you all for offering your opinions!

[Mark M]

With the recent blow up of the t.v show and books "game of thrones" I would hardly say to not post it, in fact I encourage it, it's getting to the point that if people come across it, it's not the end of the world it's just...not ideal

[DarkPrince]

If the story is as great as you say then yeah id give it a read. I know the stuff happens in real life but this is a story and is ment for reading and entertainment. So if he/she posts it yeah id read it.

[Sasha Distan]

if it's well written, and if it is approved by the proper channels (see Wildone's post) then go for it. I have written things with incest, and while there were less read than my other work, there were not wholly unaccepted. if there is a point to this incest, and if the story is good, then it deserves a proper showing.

[RolandQ]

Literature, as art, should not be limited by social mores or taboos.  I,  personally, am uncomfortable with incest as a topic for entertainment, but I'm also uncomfortable with gratuitous violence, gun possession, intolerance, and on and on.  I probably won't read the stories and I'll  miss out on the gift beyond the topic - well maybe I'll read some of it.  A warning of the content is appreciated.

[Ben Highlander]

I personally find the whole topic of incest very hot. I would say that if you see the story is about incest, just don't read it. I have written a story of incest between a father and son (19). Nobody is getting hurt, no pregnancy can ensue, so whats the deal? I think incest has happened all through history and one of the reasons it's a taboo is because of the weakening of the bloodline. I would love to read the story. It is only a story. Most people can distinguish between fantasy and reality, not so?

[CasualWanderer82]

I've written two stories featuring incest. There is an audience for it, for sure. But not everyone will admit they find the subject arousing... As with everything in erotic fiction, it's a fantasy. It doesn't mean one has indulged in an incest relationship in real life or has the desire to. As far as the story itself goes, I think it boils down to how you write it and treat the subject matter. 

[LJCC]

The risk that family members will be sexually abused, used, seduced, or stalked by other family members who reside in the same home is the main issue with incest.

For this reason, regardless of any genetic repercussions, there is a tremendous social taboo. It's not nearly as unsettling to wed a first cousin who wasn't reared alongside you as it is to wed a step-sister or adopted sister who was brought up in the same home as you from infancy. Why is it unsettling? It's just too complex if you already live in the same house since youngsters under the age of 18 shouldn't have to worry about sexual attempts from their siblings.

Therefore, if you want to make the case for first cousin marriage, that's OK; it's already allowed in many jurisdictions. But there is a valid reason for the societal taboo around close family members, and it won't go away. Even now, nobody wants it to progress. No societal movement exists to change it.

However, it's unclear if even an adult kid can give their permission to have a sexual encounter with a parent in the manner you describe. A young adult, in particular, isn't equal to the parent because of the inherent power imbalance in parent-child relationships, which frequently places undue pressure on the kid to satisfy the parent.

Additionally, we do not want parents to encourage their children to engage in sexual activity as soon as they are of legal age.

Basically, there is a huge conflict of interest for a parent to have a sexual connection with their child. Parenting is a kind of fiduciary obligation where you prioritise the welfare of your children.

Incest between parents and children is always a betrayal, unlike incest between siblings (such as those who grew up apart).

Anyway, I don't condone writing topics with incest, since incestuous fantasies are always rooted in psychology—which I dislike discussing.

The problem is promoting parent-child incestuous relationships, which poses more of a problem.

[Rusty Slocum]

I'm actually writing a (too damn long) novel dealing with incest--three brothers grow up being sexually abused by their father, the two oldest manage to escape but are forced to come home when the father is found dead and the youngest brother is suspected of killing him.  A murder mystery on top, it's actually a story about the long-term effects on victims of systemic sexual abuse.  Dark dark dark.  I don't know what the hell I'm gonna do with it, Amazon would never allow, and it would probably never be accepted here either, as while there are only a few sex scenes, mostly in the first quarter of the book, they are necessarily explicit and clearly depict rape--which was the point of writing them, I want the reader to *know* what my boys suffered.  I'll probably try to submit it here, sending the whole at once so it can be judged on its completion rather than individual chapters, but I don't hold much hope lol.  Maybe I can at least find a few beta readers.

[LJCC]

On 10/16/2023 at 5:08 PM, Rusty Slocum said:

I'm actually writing a (too damn long) novel dealing with incest--three brothers grow up being sexually abused by their father, the two oldest manage to escape but are forced to come home when the father is found dead and the youngest brother is suspected of killing him.  A murder mystery on top, it's actually a story about the long-term effects on victims of systemic sexual abuse.  Dark dark dark.  I don't know what the hell I'm gonna do with it, Amazon would never allow, and it would probably never be accepted here either, as while there are only a few sex scenes, mostly in the first quarter of the book, they are necessarily explicit and clearly depict rape--which was the point of writing them, I want the reader to *know* what my boys suffered.  I'll probably try to submit it here, sending the whole at once so it can be judged on its completion rather than individual chapters, but I don't hold much hope lol.  Maybe I can at least find a few beta readers.

 

If it's going to be classy-written, then you really have nothing to worry about.

Rape is but a smidge of what dark novels are written about. It's mostly very personal and requires a sensitive eye, compared to gratuitous gore and just plain all wrong that some novels talk about.

[Rusty Slocum]

4 hours ago, LJCC said:

If it's going to be classy-written, then you really have nothing to worry about.

I don't know if I'd classify it as "classy" lol more like brutal.  I wouldn't mind toning it down a little but it's an important scene in terms of character development (it inspires the narrator to damn the consequences and fight back, but it's a bit of a hollow victory) and plot.  I'm really more worried about the ages of the characters; the boy is a teen at the time, which is probably no problem, but even though I do not describe anything earlier, it is clear the abuse has been going on for years.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Rusty Slocum
clarity

[LJCC]

19 hours ago, Rusty Slocum said:

I don't know if I'd classify it as "classy" lol more like brutal.  I wouldn't mind toning it down a little but it's an important scene in terms of character development (it inspires the narrator to damn the consequences and fight back, but it's a bit of a hollow victory) and plot.  I'm really more worried about the ages of the characters; the boy is a teen at the time, which is probably no problem, but even though I do not describe anything earlier, it is clear the abuse has been going on for years.

 

 

The thing is, your story isn't exactly the only story ever written relating to abuse that has minors in it. If you mean brutal, as in descriptive brutal without the introspection needed by the characters, then it just comes off as an attempt to sexualise and glorify the abuse. 

You can descriptively write "abusive and sexually charged scenes", very graphic and detailed, in an exchange of the gravitas that your character has a sense to discuss, deliberate, and convene within the premise of his thoughts, the consequence of what is happening to him.

I could write about a boy getting sexually abused by his dad, describe every detail and position to the readers, but in exchange, I'd have to provide a thorough analysis of what my character is going through:

Quote

As John held his knees, entered by his father, whom he'd known for the first ten years of his life, in that dark basement where the mice squeaked with alacrity, remembering the times he had played with his mousey friends while bound and chained, a thought penetrated his young mind that maybe his father's actions were the will of the Lord. And if he were to listen to his own cries—pounded harder by the foreign object too blunt and big for his young orifice—heeding the shouting of his heart, as dictated by the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, the thought of killing his father might be the anointed salvation the angels had been whispering in his ear. Kill this son of a bitch, the voice said. Blessed be the fucker who rams his dick against you.

 

 

Ok. Maybe it's not really detailed, since I feel icky writing about it, but you get what I mean. 😆

[Rusty Slocum]

5 hours ago, LJCC said:

Ok. Maybe it's not really detailed, since I feel icky writing about it, but you get what I mean. 😆

Heh, I get *exactly* what you mean, I felt icky writing it, and I hate rereading it.  But I think I passed your test, most of the encounter is spent in his head and how he despises what he's being forced to do, and then his resolve he'll never let this particular act happen again, no matter the cost...and there is a cost.  And no one will ever know the relief I felt after I completed the very few scenes, or the dread I feel about having to go edit them later lol.  

[W_L]

To be fair, I'm less bothered by twincest than incest, it makes a slight difference to me  (I have triplets in my alternate history story involved in a relationship, which is taboo, but honestly, if they aren't hurting others or each other, why does it matter). If you were one being at one point, then through a chance of biology become multiple beings, but form a symbiotic and healthy relationship with the "other" you, it's a good thought experiment. The identical sibling stories are easier to write.

As for pure incest; older brother/younger brother, father/son, and uncle/nephew are not my cup of tea due to the imbalance in their relationships. Like others have said there's a power differential in those kinds of relationships. Additionally, there's a mentor relationship that exists in those kinds of stories that make me feel a bit uncomfortable. In BL Manga/Anime, there's an example with a BL I reviewed called Super Lovers, which has an introverted wild teenage boy and his older stepbrother, who is a former male escort. There were elements of grooming that got tied in there, which exist in hetero romance as well between older/younger lovers in that scenario. I know the idea of crafting your perfect lover from a young age is common across many cultures, even accepted in some if it's heterosexual. However, things like the myth of Pygmalion are just myths. To me, it glorifies an unrealistic concept of control over a younger partner, creating codependent psychological issues that mess with their individual development (both in fiction and the real world). 

On that point, I will introduce the major issue with writing incest with uneven power: Character roles and development. It becomes stale after a while to have one character being led around and have no agency in themselves. 

Can this kind of issue be resolved? Sure, if you can give your character independent agency beyond their role in the incest pairing.

A well-known sub-fandom, Wincest, for the Supernatural franchise, has many excellently written stories where the titular characters Dean and Sam, who are biological brothers and soulmates have developed agency for themselves. The relationship is secondary to the storyline, but it is just more overt than what the Cable TV show had with its winks to queerbaiting  

I am not against the ideas of older brother/younger brother or cousin incest stories, but you need to give them each different personality. 

Just my two cents