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AC is forcing us to look at the roots and dark cellars of human nature, showing us things we'd rather not see, but must for things to work out for the best in the end. Hope remains in a place we may find it thanks to Pandora's shutting the lid on that damn box.

Thank you, ColumbusGuy. I love this summary of the book...and you are right - hope is shut away, but still accessible with the right combination of determination and love. Cheers, my friend!   

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ColumbusGuy,

 

In your review for chapter 27, you said: "…I got a book a few months back which told the true versions of certain Greek myths as they were supposed to be, and I wish it could be done for other traditions as well."

 

 

 

There are a couple of books I would like to recommend on this front, specifically about the ancient Greek attitudes concerning Gay people and same-sex love. One is Lovers' Legends, The Gay Greek Myths by Andrew Calimach, New York 2002. This book is a bit breezy, easy to read, and only about 150 pages with quite a few photos and illustrations.

 

Of much greater significance – and a book all of you MUST read – is Myths and Mysteries of Same-Sex Love by Christine Downing, New York 1991. As an out woman and classical scholar, Downing divides her book in half. First deconstructing the antiquated, 'Victorian' notions of sex as vice and sign of psychotic behavior – whether same-sex or opposite-sex[1] – she breaks down all the 20th centuries myths we have been force-fed with a funnel. Like, '…they're that way because of a strong mother and weak father…' '…they're more prone to suicide, naturally…' '…treatment works!' Bulllshit.

She talks about the very unsavory invention of Gay as 'disease' by more Victorian closet-case psychologists like Krafft-Ebing (who favored sterilization and forced institutionalization as part of the greater Eugenics movement), and others. We as people of this strictly gay-hostile society need to have these myths broken down before we can even begin to look at other cultures, especially a culture that perished about 1,500 years ago, like the ancient Greeks.

 

In the second half, her research into all the extent material available is fantastic. All the gods and heroes are talked about in terms of who they loved and when and where. She then follows up with brilliant essays re-constructing the major Gay works that survive from antiquity, like the poetry of Sappho and Plato's Symposium.

 

The book, which I was fortunate to run into when I just out of college, set my mind on the right course to be able to separate the wheat from the cultural and homophobic chaff. Please check it out.

 

Since Downing's book, some major reconstructions have been published, like of The Symposium, Petronius' Satyricon, and are brave enough to offer accurate and non-gay biased translations of what was actually said.

 

Recent scholarly attention is now focused on presenting the Tales of Gilgamesh in a non-censored way, and show to modern readers the obvious, that the great hero and Enkidu were partners, and not 'friends.'              

   

 

 

 

  


[1] I was recently reading Psychopathic Personalities, a book written for psychiatric professions to help diagnose and treat patients, when I came across a startling rebuke of the lengths to which Freud's eroticization (and fixation on all things) sexual had taken him. This tendency of his had actually made the great man posit that a woman's breast is the first 'sex object' that an infant 'chooses.' Funny (not) that Freud, even while saying this about males, naturally thought 'normal' female infants could suckle and not get aroused. And this said rebuke by Eugene Khan was published in 1931! So why then did so much of the 20th century continue to think with Freud's twisted, and frightfully repressed way?    

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Since you can't reply to reviews, I write here instead.

 

I don't think Louis would be unhappy with his dream come true menage, but I find it hard to believe Laszlo lived a long happy life after being cursed. If he got rid of Gretza somehow (those oubliettes seem to come in handy...) I doubt she would only curse his children and leave him out of it. And if it's Vlad's doing, wouldn't he get revenge on both Gretza and Laszlo? So either way, Laszlo is in trouble. If of course the answer to breaking the curse is true love. That he seems to have in both Maria and Louis.

 

Also, having the phone sink to the bottom of the well as Em was freed of Ronald's spying was a nice echo to Junayd's dream.

Edited by Puppilull
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Since you can't reply to reviews, I write here instead.

 

I don't think Louis would be unhappy with his dream come true menage, but I find it hard to believe Laszlo lived a long happy life after being cursed. If he got rid of Gretza somehow (those oubliettes seem to come in handy...) I doubt she would only curse his children and leave him out of it. And if it's Vlad's doing, wouldn't he get revenge on both Gretza and Laszlo? So either way, Laszlo is in trouble. If of course the answer to breaking the curse is true love. That he seems to gave in both Maria and Louis.

 

Also, having the phone sink to the bottom of the well as Em was freed of Ronald's spying was a nice eho to Junayd's dream.

Well I suppose my phrase of 'long life' in the review has to be put into context, as men died young back then. Even Shakespeare, who died in 1616 at the age of 52, was considered an 'old man' by the standards of the time. As to who is going to be hexing whom (LOL!), I can't really comment yet...

 

Thanks for commenting on the phone going down the well; I like that bit too :)     

Edited by AC Benus
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In my review I talked about the lines about twin curses, and made the mistake of thinking they were Shakespeare when they are Ben Jonson's...AC sent me a note asking if I wanted to change thaat by contacting Cia before he replied, and I said 'no', I was only so anally retentive about my story chap;ters. :)

In that pm, I went on to talk about how the chapter affected me, which I only made a bried reference to in the review. Here's what I said about it:

 

The truly weird thing about the chapter was that I was perfectly fine if stirred up by the bulk of the chapter--it was only when the old woman said that they (Ahmed and Junayd) were still there, on the wall and physically that I cried. I noted and felt the same things the others did in the chapter and realized their import, but that last thing pushed all the boundaries for me at once. I had no idea at all that that one statement would affect me that way.

 

I don't know what's going to happen, and I certainly had no idea that the two Turks had wound their way so far into my heart, so it was quite a shock when I actually broke down like that--no warning, just my throat closing up and the tears starting...that is one major piece of writing to be able to do that without warning.

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In my review I talked about the lines about twin curses, and made the mistake of thinking they were Shakespeare when they are Ben Jonson's...AC sent me a note asking if I wanted to change thaat by contacting Cia before he replied, and I said 'no', I was only so anally retentive about my story chap;ters. :)

In that pm, I went on to talk about how the chapter affected me, which I only made a bried reference to in the review. Here's what I said about it:

 

The truly weird thing about the chapter was that I was perfectly fine if stirred up by the bulk of the chapter--it was only when the old woman said that they (Ahmed and Junayd) were still there, on the wall and physically that I cried. I noted and felt the same things the others did in the chapter and realized their import, but that last thing pushed all the boundaries for me at once. I had no idea at all that that one statement would affect me that way.

 

I don't know what's going to happen, and I certainly had no idea that the two Turks had wound their way so far into my heart, so it was quite a shock when I actually broke down like that--no warning, just my throat closing up and the tears starting...that is one major piece of writing to be able to do that without warning.

Thank you, ColumbusGuy, for such a heartfelt expression of emotion.

 

I added the one epigraph especially thinking about Ahmed and Junayd and how they made me personally feel. It's from the dervish's beloved master:

 

"When we are dead,

seek not our tomb in the earth,

but find it in the hearts of men."

Rumi

 

 

That seems to sum it up for me, and can keep me from being too sad, for these men do seem like my children. And I am as proud of what they became as if they were flesh and blood – my flesh and blood.

Edited by AC Benus
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"Incy wincy spider..."

 

Tim, I guess I was a bit tired last night. But I do remember reading that line several times and I still didn't get it.

 

Admit, it's an interesting theory though.

Edited by Puppilull
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"Incy wincy spider..."

 

Tim, I guess I was a bit tired last night. But I do remember reading that line several times and I still didn't get it.

 

Admit, it's an interesting theory though.

"The Incy Wincy Spider" is a children's song.  I learned it as the 'itsy bitsy" spider. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsQIYzx2WSo

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Okay, guys, I don't want any spoilers--just tell me if it's safe to read the next chapter? Is Sil okay after the crash? Does Em get killed? I'm afraid to read it after the ending...drama I can deal with, but after Sil said hope and faith will often beat curses, and Em realized he didn't have those without Sil...I am worried.

No details--just 'yes' or 'no' as to whether I can survive this coming chapter.

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Okay, guys, I don't want any spoilers--just tell me if it's safe to read the next chapter? Is Sil okay after the crash? Does Em get killed? I'm afraid to read it after the ending...drama I can deal with, but after Sil said hope and faith will often beat curses, and Em realized he didn't have those without Sil...I am worried.

No details--just 'yes' or 'no' as to whether I can survive this coming chapter.

Ha, ha! That's been my feeling for the past three chapters. However, you're still good to go!

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Thanks guys.  :)

It's weird about the 'spider song'...I didn't recognize it at first from Tim's spelling, it took Val saying it was also the 'itsy bitsy spider' for me to get it--I must have been tired too--but I learned it as the 'itty bitty spider'. :)  Must be a regional thing.

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Thanks guys.  :)

It's weird about the 'spider song'...I didn't recognize it at first from Tim's spelling, it took Val saying it was also the 'itsy bitsy spider' for me to get it--I must have been tired too--but I learned it as the 'itty bitty spider'. :)  Must be a regional thing.

Hey guys, leave poor Tim out of my crazy word choices! When I was a kid it was "Incy Wincy Spider," so I don't know where you guy came up with the new-fangled itsy bitsy, lol...believe it or not, I've never even heard the song sung like that before! Oh well, I love to live and learn!  :read:

Edited by AC Benus
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Funny... I wonder if it is regional, like CG said.  I actually learned it as both, but 'itsy bitsy' seemed to be more prevalent. 

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Ok, my response to Tim's response to my review (phu...) seems to have generated some confusion. I was trying to be clever and instead ended up learning other versions of that nursery rhyme. Tim had actually nothing to do with it.

 

Speaking of learning things - I had to look up molybdomancy. Can't say I'll use that word anytime soon, but I still was glad to learn it. Will have to find some trivia game and impress the hell out of people!

 

Itsy bitsy teeny weeny yellow polka dot bikini...

 

Will be humming that all evening!

Edited by Puppilull
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Funny... I wonder if it is regional, like CG said.  I actually learned it as both, but 'itsy bitsy' seemed to be more prevalent. 

I wonder if you sang the "Playmate" song when you were a kid? "Playmate, won't you come out to play...climb my apple tree...slide down my rain barrel..."

 

I suspect that's a region song from around my area...

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Is it similar to "Say say oh playmate" (I think that's what it's called)?  Those lyrics don't look familiar. 

 

There were hand motions to go along with it. Slapping your thighs, then the other person's hands, crossing your arms, etc. 

Edited by Valkyrie
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Ok, my response to Tim's response to my review (phu...) seems to have generated some confusion. I was trying to be clever and instead ended up learning other versions of that nursery rhyme. Tim had actually nothing to do with it.

 

Speaking of learning things - I had to look up molybdomancy. Can't say I'll use that word anytime soon, but I still was glad to learn it. Will have to find some trivia game and impress the hell out of people!

 

Itsy bitsy teeny weeny yellow polka dot bikini...

 

Will be humming that all evening!

I just replied to your and Tim's reviews so...there you go!

 

"Molybdomancy," now there's a GREAT scrabble word! I wonder how many points a person can get with that one, hehe. 

 

I learned about it casually a long time ago and sort of forgot...but then my husband brought home a molybdomancy kit from Austria a couple of Christmases ago. It came with a flat little ladle, several of the lead 'toys,' and instructions. It seems it's a traditional New Years custom in Vienna to play 'Gypsy' and read fortunes at parties. That re-intro to the custom made me do further research and decide to include a real version of it this book. I thought it would serve as a nice bookend contrast to the "Scrying" chapter. I hope it does, at least.           

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"The Incy Wincy Spider" is a children's song.  I learned it as the 'itsy bitsy" spider. 

 

I know. We have it in Sweden too. "Imse vimse spindel..."

 

I thought it fitting, since vimse means confused or scatter brained.

 

If it's spiders you want, check out: https://www.gayauthors.org/forums/topic/37906-spiders/  :o

 

I can remember hearing that song for the first time in a movie. I cannot recall which one, but the point was the main character tried to succed again and again, and every time something happened to destroy him or her. And the by then end they played that song and it was fucking sad. Ring a bell, anyone?

 

I'm not sure the Danish version we have (Lille Peter Edderkop) is exactly the same tune, even though Wiki says it's the same song.

Edited by Timothy M.
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I finally had the chance to read the latest chapter. Hopefully, my review won't spark all kinds of OT-discussions...

 

When I read the discussion between Ahmed and Junayd, I kept thinking about this poem by Swedish poet Karin Boye:

 

http://karinboye.se/verk/dikter/dikter-engelska/on-the-move-2.shtml

 

It's always difficult to find a translation that captures the feeling of a text, but this is rather good.

 

The poem combines both Ahmed's and Junayd's feelings. The road traveled is what gives your life purpose, not some far off goal. At the same time, you should not stagnate and settle in one place forever. The adventure lies ahead. Live life in motion, but be present in the here and now.

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Is it similar to "Say say oh playmate" (I think that's what it's called)?  Those lyrics don't look familiar. 

 

There were hand motions to go along with it. Slapping your thighs, then the other person's hands, crossing your arms, etc. 

I found a vid with the exact lyrics I remember, except I don't think we started it with "Oh, oh" or "Say, say" either. We just started with "Playmate." lol.

 

 

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I finally had the chance to read the latest chapter. Hopefully, my review won't spark all kinds of OT-discussions...

 

When I read the discussion between Ahmed and Junayd, I kept thinking about this poem by Swedish poet Karin Boye:

 

http://karinboye.se/verk/dikter/dikter-engelska/on-the-move-2.shtml

 

It's always difficult to find a translation that captures the feeling of a text, but this is rather good.

 

The poem combines both Ahmed's and Junayd's feelings. The road traveled is what gives your life purpose, not some far off goal. At the same time, you should not stagnate and settle in one place forever. The adventure lies ahead. Live life in motion, but be present in the here and now.

This is a really beautiful posting. Thank you for doing it!  :kiss: 

 

I always love to lean about new poets (well, at least new to me! lol), and she seems an amazing one too. The poem you attached is really, profoundly lovely! If I had known about it before I started, I probably would have used a version of it as one of the epigraphs.  

 

I think the poem is a beautiful reflection of where Ahmed and Junayd are emotionally at this stage in their journey together.

 

If you are interested, I just ran across this poem, which is on a totally OT theme! Hehe. But check it out, and maybe Eugene Field will be new to you, and I can 'repay' you the favor  0:)  

 

http://www3.amherst.edu/~rjyanco94/literature/eugenefield/poems/poemsofchildhood/pittypatandtippytoe.html

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Oohh.. I got tears in my eyes now. My own Pittypat and Tippytoe are sleeping soundly in their beds, the flat's a mess, but we don't care. I know we are blessed, having friends who struggle, sometimes in vain. I have those precious marks all over my heart.

 

Thank you!

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Okay, that 'Playmate' song was weird...I've never heard of it. I'm guessing it was more popular with girls than boys, which was all the kids my age in my neighborhood. Girls were cootie-ridden beings to be  avoided until middle school at the earliest. :)

I know there were camp songs kids knew from summer trips, but I never went to camp--probably due to more a lack of interest than my protective mom. The major song I can remember singing from elementary was about the Titanic.

Guess I need to catch up with BB now. :)

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