Is Sexually Explicit Needed In Gay Stories?

[Caz Pedroso]

From an author's POV - 

 

I'm with the others. If it fits the story put it in, if it doesn't don't, simple.

 

Love scenes can enhance a story or it can send it straight to the gutter. The advice I was given when I asked how to go about it was to start with the feelings and add in the actions only when needed.

 

From a readers POV -

 

I too skip a lot of love/sex scenes, it wasn't until I started proof reading then of course I had to read them word for word  .

 

I have actually stopped reading several authors (not ones on GA but published authors) because their books were becoming sex, sex, and more sex. with a very tenuous story line holding it together - when the characters came up air or food.

 

I do like a good LOVE scene but it is not compulsory for a good story.

[Mark Arbour]

Gratuitous sex scenes are not a sign of serious writing.  However, if writing about late teens and older, sex is an important part of life and to exclude that or only mention by innuendo may not be in character with the way people actually are.   Most ordinary people have fairly active sex fantasies and few complain that they have more sex than they can handle.  So like everything else, I think an author has to strike a balance.  Writing about a well established couple need not have much explicit sex description as they have already been through the "discovery" phase and now it's more about doing what pleases their mate based on experience.  Writing about young guys just entering a relationship without exploring their sexuality would be inauthentic in my humble opinion.

 

This

[Adam Phillips]

Are sexually explicit narrative sequences needed in "gay stories"? Of course not. But given that "No" serves as an adequate and surely definitive answer to the question, it's interesting to note where this thread has gone.

 

The first thing I'd like to say--and I'm not calling anyone in this thread out, particularly--is that I note a somewhat pervasive bias in both gay and straight populations, reading and otherwise, against explicit erotic narrative. That bothers me a little. I'm not sure entirely where it comes from. Probably it's a matter of personal preferences, but the judgmental tone I run into here and there when this topic comes up furrows my brow a little.

 

I guess that's because I don't mind narrative that's in-your-face explicit, and I don't see anything wrong with it, as long as it doesn't bore the snot out of me. I'm even okay with narrative that's clearly designed to get a response from me that's not centered in, uh, the head on top of my shoulders. I've been known to read--hell, on occasion I seek out--that kind of narrative. I've also been known to write it.

 

There are stories--and don't lie, you've read them--whose first and only intent is to get you excited, or get you up, or get you off, or whatever. They use the trappings of story to deliver their goods. And why not? A Date With Self can always use a little fantasy, right? There's video porn like that, and a lot of it is ridiculously conceived and poorly-acted...but once in a while, you'll find the aesthetics are actually working. It's not impossible.

 

And then there are stories that intend to tell a larger story but have explicit erotic sequences. Regarding this kind of stuff in general, in cinema or in print, you hear a lot of people throw around terms like "gratuitous sex." But what does "gratuitous" mean in this context? And who determines what's gratuitous? Let's be real: Aren't there scenes of all kinds, sexual and otherwise, in every narrative that are arguably gratuitous, in the sense that the same essential story could be told without them? Yet not all of those detract from the narrative. Some of them enhance it. Likewise, it's an easy critique to claim that explicit sex scenes as a whole are gratuitous, in the sense that the writer can tell the story effectively without them. But if the author weaves those scenes into the story in an aesthetically pleasing and narratively-convincing way, they can certainly intensify the portrait of characters' sexuality, and I think that's a perfectly legitimate aim. Where's the harm if the author wants to get the reader off at certain narrative points? Too much art, in my opinion, shies away from blatant depictions of sexuality. There are times in storytelling when the narrative can accommodate it, and sometimes the story actually wants it. I guess the authors pull back out of some sense of propriety, and on that matter every author is different.  As an author, maybe you don't want to distract the reader by giving him an erection he has to stop and take care of. But if a writer does like the idea of writing a sex scene that causes the reader to stop and, well, appreciate the scene in a physical way, I don't see that that's incompatible with good storytelling. I gotta say I have difficulty relating to those of you who've expressed discomfort, as readers and writers, with in-your-face depictions of sex. But then I'm probably more depraved than the rest of you. So when I see narrative that's not merely intended as a stroke piece but nevertheless has narrative passages that could be used in that way...I'm fine with it.

 

Secondly, though, the key is how well it's done. Let's face it, there's a limited set of things you can do with a finite number of body parts. What's going to give explicit narrative its real spice is for the writer to get into the heads of the characters who are using those body parts at the time they're using them. And this takes all the subtlety, imagination, creativity, and skill that any other kind of narrative writing requires. When it's done well, it packs a wallop. When it's done poorly, it's forgettable, and your time is better spent as a reader on the non-sexual parts of the narrative. Some of you mentioned that you've skipped over sex scenes when you're reading. I've done that too. Not because they're sex scenes, but because they're boring. But give me an author who has the skill to make it sizzle and make it interesting, and I'm right there, present and accounted for...in a couple of geographical/anatomical regions.

Edited June 30, 2015 by Adam Phillips

[Carlos Hazday]

             

[Timothy M.]

             

 

Ditto

[TheBlackDragon]

I think, Gay story or not, some sex scene can be a good way to spice it up in a story, specially if it is a romance (let's not speak about eroticas which revolve around sex). I do write a lot of gay sex scenes, but I involve emotions to it, maybe because I believe that people give in more when they are drunk by lust. It's a perception of mine, nothing to do with real life. 

 

I like sex scenes when they are making the story look more credible. I mean a couple who live in the same house for months have to have sex at least 4 times a week. As well, there a studies saying that the happiest couples have sex more often... if real people appreciate intimate moments, out of nowhere, with their partner why should our stories exclude it? 

 

However, that exclude the cases where the both characters aren't living together or deny their emotions for each other (it will be hella of awkward if they had sex that often...) 

[SecretDiehardRomantic]

I think that hot steamy sex should be included into a story as well we are talking about 'gay erotica' hence sex has to be included somewhere right? BUT, I think that characters in a particular story, especially if they are in a budding relationship or you know friends, etc. should not just jump in the sack and do the wham, bam, thank you sir right in. Personally, I like the build up of their relationship, the twists and turns before it leads to that moment. Then, you can go all out and make out the hottest, steamiest sex scene possible with two guys that have true meaning to it. However, it also depends on the type of story too - I picked it out as a very long story where you have time to develop the characters and have readers to connect with the protagonist(s). I guess it is subjective, and you are the author so you have the last say in what happens in the story. Good luck! 

[Graeme]

I think that hot steamy sex should be included into a story as well we are talking about 'gay erotica' hence sex has to be included somewhere right?

 

This is something that's bothered me for awhile. Is "gay fiction" and "gay erotica" synonymous? Personally, I think they're two different things, with gay erotica being a subset of gay fiction.  On that basis, I write gay fiction, not gay erotica. However, I get the general impression that many people consider the two terms to be interchangeable. What do others think?

 

As an analogy, straight romances can be erotic, but they don't have to be, and there's a genre for straight erotica. I doubt most people consider 'straight romance' and 'straight erotica' to be interchangeable, but somehow lots of people appear to think that 'gay romance' (a subset of 'gay fiction') and 'gay erotica' are...

[Timothy M.]

This is something that's bothered me for awhile. Is "gay fiction" and "gay erotica" synonymous? Personally, I think they're two different things, with gay erotica being a subset of gay fiction.  On that basis, I write gay fiction, not gay erotica. However, I get the general impression that many people consider the two terms to be interchangeable. What do others think?

 

As an analogy, straight romances can be erotic, but they don't have to be, and there's a genre for straight erotica. I doubt most people consider 'straight romance' and 'straight erotica' to be interchangeable, but somehow lots of people appear to think that 'gay romance' (a subset of 'gay fiction') and 'gay erotica' are...

 

Gay erotica can be a subset of gay romance, which is a subset of gay fiction. Or if there is no romance involved, I guess gay erotica is a subset of gay fiction directly.

Another way of looking at it is that gay erotica = porn and therefore has nothing to do with gay romance. But in gay romance you can have stories with and without sex.

However, I started out writing gay erotica/porn, but along the way I found romance sneaking in. Now I'm doing my best to write gay romance... and I'm not even gonna try keeping the sex out when it happens.

So I'm quite about whether to label my stories as romance or erotica...

Edited December 7, 2015 by Timothy M.

[Graeme]

I'd count your stories as gay romance. Straight romances can include sex so why shouldn't gay romances? But there are also many successful straight romances that don't include sex and I see no reason why there can't be successful gay romances that don't include sex.

 

Erotica (gay or straight) pretty much has to include sex and I don't see any point in debating that. I just don't see why so many people seem to think that gay fiction = gay erotica. That's the part that bothers me. I accept that the majority of gay fiction online is gay erotica, but is that majority so high that most people think of the two as being synonymous?

[Ron]

Imagine this scenario:

 

You're sitting at a coffee shop and typing your next great story. Every table in the shop is occupied by at least one person. Each person is behaving as if they are performing the most important task in the world; no one wants to share. Someone is bold enough to interrupt you, apologize and ask if they may share your table. You generously allow them to, though it is mostly because you could use a break, after all you are a diligent writer.

 

"Thank, you. I hate to be a bother…" You wave away the need for him to continue. He smiles. "…I'm, John," he says. He holds out his hand to be shaken. You shake his hand and offer a timeworn comment about needing the break anyway and introduce yourself.

 

"You seemed to be working very hard at something, Mike. May I ask what it is?" asked John. He takes a bite of his pastry and waits for a response from you.

 

"I'm a writer, John. I was working on a new story."

 

"Interesting. What are you writing?" (The inevitable question is asked.)

 

"Gay fiction."

 

"Oh." John pretends to become involved in his coffee and pastry. He looks at his watch.

 

"The time has gotten away from me, I have to run. Sorry to have interrupted, Mike. Good luck."

 

Now, imagine the same scenario but with different dialogue:

 

"You seemed to be working very hard at something, Mike. May I ask what it is?" asked John. He takes a bite of his pastry and waits for a response from you.

 

"I'm a writer of fiction, John. I was working on a new story."

 

"Interesting. What genre are we talking about?" (A slightly altered version of the inevitable question.)

 

"The one I'm working on, now, is a science fiction story revolving around gay characters."

 

"Oh. Is there a market for that?" John asks. (And… the conversation continues.)

 

 

Might the issue of confusion between general fiction and erotica/porn be due to the word Gay preceding the word Fiction? Gay Fiction. Do we say: Straight Fiction; Straight Romance; Straight Fantasy, and, etc.?

 

Do we just say to people that we are fiction writers first, allowing genre and the fact that the writing revolves around gay characters come through later as additional facts? I'm thinking that this is a good way to go, but it is best suited to a conversation (as above) about what one does.

 

Fiction encompasses all types of nonfiction works, including Romance, Fantasy, Drama, etc. Yet we still say Science Fiction, why is that? Because people felt there was a need to separate that type of writing from what they then understood to be serious writing. The name stuck and in many circles this type of fiction is still not taken seriously today. I don't need to say that a fair number of writers make a very good living by writing this "unimportant type of work."

 

I say we take Gay Fiction and own it, just like those Science Fiction writers. We define what Gay Fiction means—what that includes. I will say, though, that Science Fiction can be quite fluid, and that, perhaps, we need to be the same with our ideas and definitions. Maybe, there is room for a little bit of erotica, after all.

[Mark Arbour]

Imagine this scenario:

 

You're sitting at a coffee shop and typing your next great story. Every table in the shop is occupied by at least one person. Each person is behaving as if they are performing the most important task in the world; no one wants to share. Someone is bold enough to interrupt you, apologize and ask if they may share your table. You generously allow them to, though it is mostly because you could use a break, after all you are a diligent writer.

 

"Thank, you. I hate to be a bother…" You wave away the need for him to continue. He smiles. "…I'm, John," he says. He holds out his hand to be shaken. You shake his hand and offer a timeworn comment about needing the break anyway and introduce yourself.

 

"You seemed to be working very hard at something, Mike. May I ask what it is?" asked John. He takes a bite of his pastry and waits for a response from you.

 

"I'm a writer, John. I was working on a new story."

 

"Interesting. What are you writing?" (The inevitable question is asked.)

 

"Gay fiction."

 

"Oh." John pretends to become involved in his coffee and pastry. He looks at his watch.

 

"The time has gotten away from me, I have to run. Sorry to have interrupted, Mike. Good luck."

 

Now, imagine the same scenario but with different dialogue:

 

"You seemed to be working very hard at something, Mike. May I ask what it is?" asked John. He takes a bite of his pastry and waits for a response from you.

 

"I'm a writer of fiction, John. I was working on a new story."

 

"Interesting. What genre are we talking about?" (A slightly altered version of the inevitable question.)

 

"The one I'm working on, now, is a science fiction story revolving around gay characters."

 

"Oh. Is there a market for that?" John asks. (And… the conversation continues.)

 

 

Might the issue of confusion between general fiction and erotica/porn be due to the word Gay preceding the word Fiction? Gay Fiction. Do we say: Straight Fiction; Straight Romance; Straight Fantasy, and, etc.?

 

Do we just say to people that we are fiction writers first, allowing genre and the fact that the writing revolves around gay characters come through later as additional facts? I'm thinking that this is a good way to go, but it is best suited to a conversation (as above) about what one does.

 

Fiction encompasses all types of nonfiction works, including Romance, Fantasy, Drama, etc. Yet we still say Science Fiction, why is that? Because people felt there was a need to separate that type of writing from what they then understood to be serious writing. The name stuck and in many circles this type of fiction is still not taken seriously today. I don't need to say that a fair number of writers make a very good living by writing this "unimportant type of work."

 

I say we take Gay Fiction and own it, just like those Science Fiction writers. We define what Gay Fiction means—what that includes. I will say, though, that Science Fiction can be quite fluid, and that, perhaps, we need to be the same with our ideas and definitions. Maybe, there is room for a little bit of erotica, after all.

 

I think the scenario you outlined would evolve a little differently.  In my personal opinion, it is not the word "fiction" that makes the guy bail, it's the word "gay".  If you said "science fiction" and neglected to add the part about gay characters, I'm with you, but adding that little snippet would still bring that guy back to his foot-staring mode.

[Ron]

I think the scenario you outlined would evolve a little differently.  In my personal opinion, it is not the word "fiction" that makes the guy bail, it's the word "gay".  If you said "science fiction" and neglected to add the part about gay characters, I'm with you, but adding that little snippet would still bring that guy back to his foot-staring mode.

The word "gay" is obviously the marker, Mark. What I am willing to believe is that not everyone would come up with reasons to leave in the second scenario. Especially when, if in the context of using the word "gay", it doesn't imply porn. Because Graeme is right, people seem to equate "gay fiction" with porn. It's always possible, of course, and maybe even likely, that you're thinking is on track in the second scenario, too. Though a person can be hopeful, and the chances of further dialogue are still better in the second scenario. If he/she runs, no skin off my back. And depending on how tactless they are about leaving, I might even get a good chuckle out it.

 

My post was a response to Graeme's finding the equating of gay fiction with erotica/porn bothersome. I don't think that we should let it bother us. There is room for erotica. No one can argue that porn doesn't sell and I am reasonably sure that is why so many authors lean heavily in that direction in their writing. I get it. But that isn't the be-all-end-all of gay fiction (nor any fiction), and, I'm thinking, offering up another way to look at the writing isn't going to hurt.

[Graeme]

Thanks for the insights, Ron. You've got me thinking about Science Fiction vs Fiction, and why there's a distinction. Yes, I think everyone recognises the Science Fiction is different, but I'm not sure why.

 

I think it might be that Science Fiction is a different setting. Fiction implies 'real world' while Science Fiction doesn't. Science Fiction, however, covers almost all the same genres as Fiction -- within Science Fiction you have comedies, dramas, adventures, romances, westerns, mysteries, erotica, etc. About the only genre that I think might be missing would be historical, but even there I suspect there are a few talented writers who have successfully done a historical Science Fiction story.

 

Is there a parallel with Gay Fiction? Gay Fiction equally covers all the genres, if not more since it also includes Science Fiction. I don't have a problem with Gay Fiction being identified as 'different' like Science Fiction is 'different' (though personally, I don't think it should be), but if we accept that then we need to somehow demonstrate that it really does cover all the genres, not just erotica. That would require education, a process that has already started in some respects with movies like Brokeback Mountain which moved gay movies into the realm of romance. A few more things like that would get people to realise that stories focused on gay characters aren't just about sex or stereotypes.

 

Indeed, over the last ten years I've spotted a steady evolution in TV and movies when it comes to gay characters. Watching The Flash season 1, I was a little disappointed to realise that the first gay character in the show was one of the villains, though they also mentioned that his family had essentially kicked him out and that had made him bitter, etc., but later on they slipped in the fact that the senior police officer in the show was also gay, and his relationship with his boyfriend later on had a significant part in the overall story. It wasn't forced, they just did it. A straight character would've worked just as well from a plot point of view, but the writers chose to make that minor but recurring character gay.

 

How long will it be before the same thing happens with gay fiction? We're starting to see mainstream books that include gay characters that aren't stereotypes. That gets back to Ron's example where the general population is starting to see stories with gay characters as something that's not 'out there'. But the phrase 'gay fiction' has connotations for the general public that means it's not the same as 'fiction with a gay focus' or 'fiction that includes gay characters'.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Graeme

[Cole Matthews]

What a lovely and enlightening discussion!!!  I enjoy reading many of the ideas being proposed and floated as to the definition of 'gay fiction.'  Here's my two cents worth.  

 

I think gay fiction involves gay/bi characters who must integrate the world through a non-straight perspective.  I think as a gay man, many things are different for me given I'm attracted to and in love with another male.  I believe we have a different kind of viewpoint and our stories are slanted in a particular, and interestingly unique, way.  At least that's the way I see it.  My life experiences have shaped and informed me and therefore my stories reflect that.

 

Having said that, to answer the question, I think sex scenes should be included if the author feels it important.  If it's about a sexual dysfunction or exploration, it's probably not only helpful, but necessary to tell the tale.  Including explicit scenes otherwise aren't that helpful.  I've skipped those parts in stories when it wasn't really illuminating to the plot or characters.  Other times, I lost interest because it was mostly porn-like. Sometimes they can be really powerful though.  

[Rndmrunner]

I agree with Graeme's perspective. I personally generally look for good writing which may or may not include explicit sex scenes. I do feel that some authors feel that sex scenes are a requirement which is a shame as writing good sexual scenes is a specific skill. They can add or detract from the story. Some authors focus too much on the grinding body parts. This can just be tedious. Some of the best sex scenes are not graphic at all but set the scene and let the reader fill in their own details. Sex or no sex I want characters that are believable, interesting and offer the potential for growth.