Jump to content

Return With Honor By Cynus


Recommended Posts

I decided to create the forum topic for this story early, knowing that there might be a lot of questions about terminology and other matters on this story. Please feel free to address them here, and I will do my best to define anything about Mormon culture that I left too ambiguous in the text.
 
 
[sharedmedia=stories:stories:4896]

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment

Hey Cynus,

 

I actually knew an acquaintance back in high school who was Mormon. While we were never close he did tell me a bit about the mission. In fact at this moment, his sister is almost done with her service in Nebraska and he just started his in Chile at the beginning of the year.

 

I do have a question though, can you explain the significance of the addresses Brother and Sister? :)

Edited by Drew Espinosa
  • Like 1
Link to comment

Hey Cynus,

 

I actually knew an acquaintance back in high school who was Mormon. While we were never close he did tell me a bit about the mission. In fact at this moment, his sister is almost done with her service in Nebraska and he just started his in Chile at the beginning of the year.

 

I do have a question though, can you explain the significance of the addresses Brother and Sister? :)

Neat to know that you have that connection. I am thankfully not a part of the church anymore (I'm not pushing an agenda in this story, btw, for anyone reading this who might think that I am.) but of course, living in Utah like I do I have a large number of family, friends, and acquaintances who are members of the church. 

 

The significance of those titles is probably what you'd expect. The church essentially teaches that we are all one large family, being descendants of Adam and Eve and then later Noah and his family. (As they do believe in the literal flood). They also believe that baptism into the church brings you into The House of Israel. Essentially this means that anyone in the church (And less directly those out of the church) are all part of the same family, and so we should respect that familial tie. Rather than the formal but impersonal title of Mr/Mrs/Ms, they instead refer to adult members of the church as Brother/Sister, unless they've acquired a different title through appointment to an office that warrants one, such as the position of "bishop", or the person that presides over a ward(local church division.)

  • Like 2
Link to comment

Other churches use the Brother/Sister/Elder/Deacon addresses also. The Church of Christ is one that comes to mind.

I know some churches use Deacon, but in general I am unfamiliar with the intricacies of church hierarchy :)

  • Like 1
Link to comment

Because of the Mormons beliefs in family, they have the most comprehensive genealogical library in the world which is a boon for people doing genealogical research. The amount of data in the library can be simply overwhelming. I spent about a week, a number of years ago, in the library in Salt Lake City doing some research on my family tree. 

 

I also remember that missionaries were referred to as Elder 'name' in the gay themed  2003 movie "Latter Days".

  • Like 1
Link to comment

Other churches use the Brother/Sister/Elder/Deacon addresses also. The Church of Christ is one that comes to mind.

 

I have encountered a number of these churches myself. But then again, theology has always been of interest to me, though it's from the perspective of anthropology rather than interest in their cosmological answers, so I can't say my experience is going to mirror anyone else's.

 

I know some churches use Deacon, but in general I am unfamiliar with the intricacies of church hierarchy :)

I'll go over some more of it below to help give a basis for things. Just some basic terms.

 

Because of the Mormons beliefs in family, they have the most comprehensive genealogical library in the world which is a boon for people doing genealogical research. The amount of data in the library can be simply overwhelming. I spent about a week, a number of years ago, in the library in Salt Lake City doing some research on my family tree. 

 

I also remember that missionaries were referred to as Elder 'name' in the gay themed  2003 movie "Latter Days".

Genealogy is something I was taught about by an early age for that very reason. There is a Mormon belief is performing religious acts on behalf of those who are already dead, such as baptisms and other church ordinances. Genealogy feeds into that a great deal, in that members are expected to research their family trees to find those who weren't members of the church and perform these works for them. 

 

I've never seen the movie, "Latter Days", surprisingly. :) I've heard of it though.

 

Here is a list of some of the common titles/terms that are likely to appear in this story:

 

Elder: 1) A male missionary of any age. 2) An office in the priesthood. Any male who has entered the second tier of the priesthood in the Mormon Church but has not yet attained the level of High Priest. 3) The title of any male General Authority (The leading body of the church, including the twelve apostles) except for the church presidency.

 

Sister: 1) A female missionary of any age. 2) the title for any adult female member of the church.

 

Brother: 1) the title for any adult male member of the church, except for specific leadership positions.

 

Branch: 1) A small local congregation based upon geographical area. Led by a branch presidency rather than a Bishop. Generally less than fifty active members.

 

Ward: 1) A small local congregation based upon geographical area, but larger than a branch. Led by a Bishopric. Most have fifty or more active members. 

 

Stake: 1) A grouping of wards/branches within the same geographical area. Led by a Stake Presidency advised by a High Council of High Priests. 

 

Bishop: 1) The leader of a ward, appointed by the Stake President.

 

Stake President: 1) The leader of a Stake, appointed by a General Authority.

 

General Authority: 1) Members of the leading body of the church. A member from this group is referred to as an 'Elder'.

 

Apostle: 1) Member of the leading council of the church. Mormons believe that each Apostle has the ability to prophesy and receive revelation on behalf of church matters.

 

First Presidency: The three current leaders of the church. The church president, who is also called 'The Prophet', and his two councilors who were chosen from among the Apostles.

  • Like 3
Link to comment

Cynus, thank you very much for posting the terminology and the story.  I look forward to learning more as the story and the Forum posts continue. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment

Cynus, thank you very much for posting the terminology and the story.  I look forward to learning more as the story and the Forum posts continue. 

I plan on being even more active on my forum posts for this story than I was with The Navigator. As I suspect the terminology will be foreign to many of the readers, I hope that this will serve as an adequate resource whenever someone is stuck, or that they'll ask here if they want more information.

Link to comment

You mentioned that Gary, Jason, Christopher, and Luke would be going to South Korea for their mission (which is based in part on your own experience). That got me thinking about North Korea.

 

I assume, the Church cannot send missionaries to closed off nations (like N. Korea) and unstable regions/countries (like the Middle East)... my question is: are their other restrictions that limit the choices for the Church?

 

 

 

PS: If this is beyond the no-politics rule, tell me and I'll edit it :)

  • Like 1
Link to comment

You mentioned that Gary, Jason, Christopher, and Luke would be going to South Korea for their mission (which is based in part on your own experience). That got me thinking about North Korea.

 

I assume, the Church cannot send missionaries to closed off nations (like N. Korea) and unstable regions/countries (like the Middle East)... my question is: are their other restrictions that limit the choices for the Church?

 

 

 

PS: If this is beyond the no-politics rule, tell me and I'll edit it :)

 I believe that we're fine as long as we're not pushing a political agenda. Talking about what an entity can or cannot legally do shouldn't break that. (But Likewise, if this is something we shouldn't be talking about, just let me know and I will also edit accordingly.)

 

There are a few others, yes. :) As you mentioned, closed off nations are definitely not any more open to the church than you'd think they would be, and of course they have to weigh the decision carefully as to whether or not they should send missionaries to unstable places, though sometimes they are sent there. :)

 

As far as I know, Mormons are not allowed to proselyte (I realize that this word is also written "proselytize", but Mormons tend to use the spelling on the other side of the parentheses) in Vatican City, and I assume there are other theocratic states that would limit the Church's options. Some of the African nations, perhaps, though I don't know for certain. :) 

 

Then there are other nations which allow missionaries into the country in a service capacity. A guy I knew in High school was sent to India on a "service mission". He wasn't allowed to teach the gospel unless directly approached and asked.

 

There were also limits sometimes on who we could teach. We were told that if we knew a person was Muslim then we shouldn't offer to teach them unless they asked. This wasn't for any nefarious reason, but rather because several Muslim converts to the church had become victims of "mercy killings" after they chose to convert. The church didn't want to risk their lives being put in danger just for meeting with us, unless they chose to instigate that meeting.

 

At least, that's what we were told. There's an awful lot of misinformation out there. :)

  • Like 2
Link to comment

Cynus, been curious about this one, actually a little hesitant to read it, I also grew up in the Church, though I don't have much animosity toward it like so many others I've interacted with over the years. Anyway, I've been hesitant to start reading this one simply because I felt like a lot of what you'll end up saying was already covered in the Navigator. Granted I haven't read any of it yet and am totally prejudging it, but I'm pretty sure the direction the story will take, considering you're likely injecting your own experiences into the story. Will there be any real surprises in what you have planned?

 

Sorry not trying to be rude or anything, I just seem to be gunshy starting new stories lately.

  • Like 1
Link to comment

Cynus, been curious about this one, actually a little hesitant to read it, I also grew up in the Church, though I don't have much animosity toward it like so many others I've interacted with over the years. Anyway, I've been hesitant to start reading this one simply because I felt like a lot of what you'll end up saying was already covered in the Navigator. Granted I haven't read any of it yet and am totally prejudging it, but I'm pretty sure the direction the story will take, considering you're likely injecting your own experiences into the story. Will there be any real surprises in what you have planned?

 

Sorry not trying to be rude or anything, I just seem to be gunshy starting new stories lately.

I don't consider your question rude at all, so don't worry about it. :)

 

However, I think I may need a little more clarification about your concern before I can be sure I'm answering it properly. If you're worried about posting spoilers or causing me to do so, then you're welcome to PM me instead.

 

I will say that the only connection I intentionally made between this story and The Navigator is that the characters grew up in a Mormon household, but whereas The Navigator is based around characters that left the church some time ago after having had a negative experience with it, this story centers around characters that are in the thick of Mormon culture and dealing with issues such as sexual identity. I admit to a slight agenda toward the church in The Navigator, specifically toward those families who believe that the culture calls upon them to abandon their children, but I actually have significantly less of one in this story. 

 

Hope that helps, and again, you're welcome to PM me if you're worried about spoilers.

Link to comment

Yeah tend to get wordy and vague sometimes. I guess it's just, Silas and Ian had some real epiphanies about the Church and their negative (and all too true) experience informed their ultimate disposition toward the Church. I guess my question is, will this missionary run a similar course only to come to the same epiphany? Cause that almost feels like a "been there done that" sort of plot. Hopefully my question is somewhat clear and makes sense.

  • Like 1
Link to comment

Yeah tend to get wordy and vague sometimes. I guess it's just, Silas and Ian had some real epiphanies about the Church and their negative (and all too true) experience informed their ultimate disposition toward the Church. I guess my question is, will this missionary run a similar course only to come to the same epiphany? Cause that almost feels like a "been there done that" sort of plot. Hopefully my question is somewhat clear and makes sense.

It certainly does make sense. :)

 

This story is less about belief in the church and more about the acceptance of one's self. As of right now, I can't say for certain what epiphanies the boys will reach, but I do know that the driving point in the plot isn't about their struggle with belief in the church. All four of the main characters may very well remain members of the church at the end. That vote likely won't be cast until much later in the story. The characters drive this story, and they haven't taken me to the end yet.

 

I do not think that the characters will go the route of Silas or Ian, or certainly not all four of them will. It's possible that one of them (And I know which one) will, but the conclusions they draw will be different from Silas/Ian, because they are definitely different people.

 

I feel like I'm rambling now. Am I rambling?

Link to comment

It real difficulties with the words and some things relating to religion. I do have worked for a home group in this religious factor, about my childhood. I do have problem with this terminology and all, but adjusted after all. I hope you will go well with the story and the religious views... :)

  • Like 1
Link to comment

It certainly does make sense. :)

This story is less about belief in the church and more about the acceptance of one's self. As of right now, I can't say for certain what epiphanies the boys will reach, but I do know that the driving point in the plot isn't about their struggle with belief in the church. All four of the main characters may very well remain members of the church at the end. That vote likely won't be cast until much later in the story. The characters drive this story, and they haven't taken me to the end yet.

I do not think that the characters will go the route of Silas or Ian, or certainly not all four of them will. It's possible that one of them (And I know which one) will, but the conclusions they draw will be different from Silas/Ian, because they are definitely different people.

I feel like I'm rambling now. Am I rambling?

Not rambling at all. I certainly don't expect a storyline that heavily features faith in the church (or lack thereof)as a theme. I would only assume that anyone who realizes a same-sex attraction and accepts that about themselves, and realizes there's nothing wrong with them, would definitely come to realize some of the beliefs of the church will be at odds with who they are. I learned that myself as a teenager. So I would expect any characters going through this would probably leave the church. I guess I was more curious if just because of this that they would automatically become angry at the church or their family because of that.

  • Like 1
Link to comment

Not rambling at all. I certainly don't expect a storyline that heavily features faith in the church (or lack thereof)as a theme. I would only assume that anyone who realizes a same-sex attraction and accepts that about themselves, and realizes there's nothing wrong with them, would definitely come to realize some of the beliefs of the church will be at odds with who they are. I learned that myself as a teenager. So I would expect any characters going through this would probably leave the church. I guess I was more curious if just because of this that they would automatically become angry at the church or their family because of that.

I think that all I really have left to say is that these characters are definitely different people from anyone I've ever written before. Their actions will be their own, and I think that if you give them a chance they won't disappoint you. The choice, of course, is up to you. :) It's definitely a different plot from The Navigator, so I don't think you'll have any worry of having the same experience with it as you did with the other story.

  • Like 1
Link to comment

It is going to be an interesting story.

 

What I know about the Mormon religion is from an insatiable curiosity about many things

.

The one thing I wonder about is the "Book of Mormon", which is, as I understand it, the Mormon Bible. Not the book itself,

but it's origins. As the story goes Joseph Smith transcribed the book from gold plates buried by Moroni and found by Smith, but

I've not read or heard anything about what happened to the plates after Smith finished his translations.

  • Like 1
Link to comment

A little late maybe, but reading the last chapter I got the impression that using first names was a no-no? It almost seemed to me like an attempt to do away with the real person, so the church could create a new one only filled with the "appropriate" thoughts and ideas.

 

I admit, I'm very suspicious of groups who feel the need to take over people's lives like that, so my interpretation of the guys correcting themselves almost apologetically is perhaps biased.

 

It's "just" a title thing?

  • Like 1
Link to comment

It is going to be an interesting story.

 

What I know about the Mormon religion is from an insatiable curiosity about many things

.

The one thing I wonder about is the "Book of Mormon", which is, as I understand it, the Mormon Bible. Not the book itself,

but it's origins. As the story goes Joseph Smith transcribed the book from gold plates buried by Moroni and found by Smith, but

I've not read or heard anything about what happened to the plates after Smith finished his translations.

Sorry it took so long to get back to you on this, Tomas. :)

 

The story after Smith finished his translation is that the the angel Moroni took the plates up to Heaven with him. A convenient way to get them off the planet in case anyone wants evidence, I guess.  :funny:

 

Everything else you said about the story was spot on for what I was taught as a child, though they've recently altered the official story. (They're claiming it was always this way, and that the way we were taught as a children was just folklore) Now, instead of Joseph Smith having translated the plates directly through the power of God, he supposedly peered through a hat at a special seer stone in order to translate everything... 

Link to comment

A little late maybe, but reading the last chapter I got the impression that using first names was a no-no? It almost seemed to me like an attempt to do away with the real person, so the church could create a new one only filled with the "appropriate" thoughts and ideas.

 

I admit, I'm very suspicious of groups who feel the need to take over people's lives like that, so my interpretation of the guys correcting themselves almost apologetically is perhaps biased.

 

It's "just" a title thing?

I've never thought of it that way, but I wouldn't be surprised if you're dead on. It's not like they officially say that they do it for that reason, but that is certainly what happens. You start to lose who you were before you became and Elder, and the position you have in the church is one that is all-consuming and takes over your life completely. I felt like I lost a great deal of my individuality on my mission, and it's probably what led to my nervous breakdown a year later.

 

You've given me much to think about. :)

Link to comment

Sorry it took so long to get back to you on this, Tomas. :)

 

The story after Smith finished his translation is that the the angel Moroni took the plates up to Heaven with him. A convenient way to get them off the planet in case anyone wants evidence, I guess.  :funny:

 

Everything else you said about the story was spot on for what I was taught as a child, though they've recently altered the official story. (They're claiming it was always this way, and that the way we were taught as a children was just folklore) Now, instead of Joseph Smith having translated the plates directly through the power of God, he supposedly peered through a hat at a special seer stone in order to translate everything... 

No need to apologize.

 

I suppose that since it seems that there is an ever increasing number of people questioning even the existence of God, they would have to come up with some other mystical way for the translations to have taken place. Of course that begs the question... What happened to the seer stone? Was it the stone that Moroni took up to heaven and not the golden plates which were never on earth to begin with?

  • Like 1
Link to comment

No need to apologize.

 

I suppose that since it seems that there is an ever increasing number of people questioning even the existence of God, they would have to come up with some other mystical way for the translations to have taken place. Of course that begs the question... What happened to the seer stone? Was it the stone that Moroni took up to heaven and not the golden plates which were never on earth to begin with?

The plates, according to the official story, still existed, but the method of translation is what has been altered in the official story.

 

Here's an article about the stone. The church recently released a series of photographs of the stone, and the picture in the article is one of those official pictures.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seer_stone_(Latter_Day_Saints) 

  • Like 1
Link to comment

The plates, according to the official story, still existed, but the method of translation is what has been altered in the official story.

 

Here's an article about the stone. The church recently released a series of photographs of the stone, and the picture in the article is one of those official pictures.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seer_stone_(Latter_Day_Saints) 

Thanks for this. I will check it out.

  • Like 1
Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Our Privacy Policy can be found here: Privacy Policy. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue..