[AFriendlyFace] Giving Up by AFriendlyFace

[Graeme]

Giving Up by AFriendlyFace

Greg and Trevor reflect on the nature of their relationship and come to a somewhat surprising decision.

 

 

:nuke: :nuke: Spoilers Below!!! :nuke: :nuke:

[corvus]

Since there are so few anthology entries, I think I can give feedback to all of them this afternoon. This is the one I read first. As usual with Kevin's work, there's a plethora of funny lines. There didn't seem to be much of a plot, so I imagine the story is one of those "peeks into someone's life" sort of works. I think it did succeed in creating that sense of world/atmosphere. In short, this was a nice, pleasant little read.

 

On the other hand, I didn't really enjoy the abrupt changes in emotion. I felt as though I'd landed in a daytime soap opera. Greg and Trevor fight and make up very fast -- not necessarily in terms of the time within the plot, but, rather, in terms of the pacing between. Moreover, although I did get a rather fuzzy feel from Trevor and Greg's lovey-dovey-ness, the atmosphere wasn't convincing enough to make me stop wondering, So what's the point?

 

I would recommend it to someone who's in the mood for sugar.

[Tiger]

Greg and Trevor are the kind of couple that is miserable both together and without each other. I'd have to say their relationship isn't the healthiest in existence. Kevin, this is your best anthology yet, and I am certainly pleased with it. Keep up the great work.

[Tiff]

I can't really decide which anthology of yours I liked better. The last one was painful and made me sad...just like Greg's...you two are EVIL.

 

This one didn't exactly leave me feeling happy either, although the ending did give a sense of hope. Greg and Trevor do love one another, and as much as Greg tries to be cold out of pride or something, he's a big ol' softies...when Trevor's sleeping. I liked that at the very end, he was the most truthful. He had said he loved Trevor earlier in their conversation, but he never got emotional. The tears at the end was perfect. It really hit home that as dangerous and codependnt as their relationship was, they'd always be together.

 

You did a good job showing their verbal fight. It was described so well, the back and forth nature, the cruel words, alternated with the soft words, made me visualize an actual physical fight.

 

At times I was seriously hoping they would break up in the end and just call it quits for good. I almost got my wish when Trevor said he was unhappy. It's almost a sure thing they would always be together and you did a good job of showing how people are scared to let go, of how people hold onto something bad for safety and security. Love isn't enough to hold a relationship together, but Greg and Trevor are making it work. They're stupid, LOL, but admirable! It's the lesser of two evils: they're miserable together, but they'd die being apart.

 

As usual you have great dialogue and wonderfully humorous lines. You're just a funny guy, Kev. My favorite line was at the end, about gnawing off their limbs until they'd be reduced to nubs. Good image, gross as well, but very endearing.

 

Excellent job as always Kevin!

[kitten]

I really, really liked this very well written story.

 

The humour and witty dialogue provide an excellent counterpoint to an underlying darkness. This sort of unhappy but co-dependant relationship is very realistic - I've seen such relationships myself, though thankfully from the outside.

 

Although we may get pleasure from reading about the sort of idealised romantic relationships we can find in some other stories, there is also the implication that we may be failures if we can't achieve that ideal state. On the other hand, when we compare our relationships to that in 'Giving Up' we can (hopefully!) feel that we have achieved better. We can experience a sort of Schadenfreude.

 

I regret to have to admit that this is the first of Kevin's stories that I've read, but it has certainly made me want to go and read more.

 

Thanks for a great story!

 

Kit

[Cynical Romantic]

How different this is in tone to "BMAD"!

 

This is the first of the anthology entries that I read, and I was very impressed at how well you managed to describe, in a few poignant scenes, what is essentially my worst nightmare.

 

See, all my life, I've had friends who have stayed in codependent relationships simply because they were afraid of being alone or, like your characters, they "don't know who they are" without the other person. And all my life, I felt sorry for them, just like I feel sorry for Greg and Trevor.

 

I know they do love each other in their own way, but they just can't see that their form of love is slowly killing them both. I always got so mad at people who would stay in a bad relationship for the wrong reasons, and I found myself getting similarly frustrated with Greg and Trevor. I've always been the fiercely independent type - maybe a bit too much so - but I've never wanted to fall into the trap you describe so well in your story.

 

Great job! Reading this made me happy to be single.

[MikeL]

Reading this made me happy to be single.

Quelle domage! I can think of no happier situation in life than to be in a loving, committed relationship. Having someone with whom to share your hopes and dreams, someone to receive and return your love, will make you complete.

 

With so many marriages ending in divorce and so many couples (gay and straight) living together for the sake of convenience rather than due to a commitment to each other, relationships often seem bleak and unattractive. But if two people can make a commitment and develop mutual trust, love can flourish.

 

Admittedly, Greg and Trevor don't have their act together. They are immature. Neither has ever made an honest commitment to the other. It takes some effort to be happy in a relationship. It takes a heap of living to make a house a home.

 

Please don't take comfort in being alone. There is something better...something that can make you happier still.

[Graeme]

It's strange to me that people seem to think that the relationship between Greg and Trevor isn't a good one.

 

Yes, it's volatile. Yes, it's not smooth sailing for them. But just because they can't say they like each other, that doesn't mean they don't. Look at the actions, not the words. They have a strong relationship, one that has weathered a lot of storms. They've done a lot of experimenting about how to live together, and some of those experiments haven't worked, but they're still together.

 

Is it really unhealthy? It's not normal, but that doesn't make it wrong. It is the right relationship for them. We only see snippets of their lives together, but while they've had crises, they've always come back to each other. If it was really that unhealthy or unhappy, I don't think that would be the case. They may be prone to hysterics and theatrical behaviour, but that's their personalities.

 

Just my opinion

[kitten]

Please don't take comfort in being alone. There is something better...something that can make you happier still.

 

I'm sorry to have to disagree so strongly with a friend, but, to me this is like saying 'you'd be happier if you were straight and married'.

 

People are different. The same things do nat make everyone happy. Not everyone enjoys heterosexual sex. Not everyone enjoys living with another person as part of a couple.

 

Do you pity a gay man because he hasn't yet found the right woman he can settle down with? So why pity a person who enjoys living on his own? Why assume that he's just not met the right person yet?

 

Some people enjoy being independent. They relish the freedom to eat, sleep, watch TV, go out, stay in, write, read, listen to music, etc without having to take into account what anyone else wants. They enjoy the fact that they can have solitude to think and meditate whenever they want. For someone who enjoys living alone, being on their own doesn't mean they are lonely. They might well have lots of friends, a good social life and a good sex life. They enjoy having visitors but always they are relieved to get their home back to themselves.

 

Such 'loners' might be in a minority, but it doesn't mean that they would be happier if they were like everyone else. We are all different. We have different needs, different desires, different priorities. Just because the majority of people might be happier sharing their lives with an intimate partner doesn't mean that everyone will be.

 

So, despite the fact that I like and respect Mike a lot, I think that the statement quoted above is presumptuous almost to the point of being insulting.

 

Kit

[Cynical Romantic]

Wow, I guess I got misinterpreted. All I meant was that I'd rather be alone than be in a bad, unhealthy, miserable relationship due to fear of being alone.

 

Aside from that, I'm looking for love as much as the next person. I've even been lucky enough to have found it, or some approximation of it, once or twice in my life. I'm single at the moment, yes, but it's not like it's deliberate.

 

I was mostly commenting on co-dependency, and on the people I know who are literally terrified to be alone for even five minutes. They tend to either stay in bad relationships forever, or to jump quickly from one bad relationship to another. They are people who have never found a sense of self that didn't involve being one-half of a duo, and they will sometimes stay in god-awful relationships full of emotional or even physical abuse rather than face their fear of leaving. Or, more often, as Kevin depicted so well in this story, they will just "settle", despite the fact that they don't even like each other all that much, because it's all they know how to do.

 

That's what I was getting at, and I'm sorry if I gave the opposite impression.

[AFriendlyFace]

I've really enjoyed the comments and discussion on this so far! Thanks everyone! I want to respond in more detail to several of you and your different points, but I have to dash in a bit, and I wanted to make a few comments on the most recent two posts.

 

Some people enjoy being independent. They relish the freedom to eat, sleep, watch TV, go out, stay in, write, read, listen to music, etc without having to take into account what anyone else wants. They enjoy the fact that they can have solitude to think and meditate whenever they want. For someone who enjoys living alone, being on their own doesn't mean they are lonely. They might well have lots of friends, a good social life and a good sex life. They enjoy having visitors but always they are relieved to get their home back to themselves.

Personally, I think this sums me up extremely well. In fact I can't think of any part that I don't feel is true for me.

 

 

Such 'loners' might be in a minority, but it doesn't mean that they would be happier if they were like everyone else. We are all different. We have different needs, different desires, different priorities. Just because the majority of people might be happier sharing their lives with an intimate partner doesn't mean that everyone will be.

I don't think this quite describes me though. I mean, I think under the right circumstances I could probably be just as happy with someone, and possibly happier (although I'm pretty happy to begin with ).

 

In fact, finding a suitable boyfriend is on my list of things to do in the nearish future. Mind you, it's below quite a few other things.

 

Wow, I guess I got misinterpreted. All I meant was that I'd rather be alone than be in a bad, unhealthy, miserable relationship due to fear of being alone.

 

Aside from that, I'm looking for love as much as the next person. I've even been lucky enough to have found it, or some approximation of it, once or twice in my life. I'm single at the moment, yes, but it's not like it's deliberate.

I think this personally sums me up quite accurately as well. I would never stay in a bad relationship simply because I was afraid of being alone. Being alone holds absolutely no fear for me, and as Kit said, it isn't 'lonely'. Actually, as he also said, I have a very satisfying social life and quite a few friends (and I probably have more sex than most single people ) so being lonely really isn't an issue at all. In fact, my general feeling is usually "I'd like still more time by myself".

 

But yes, I definitely think it'll be lovely to settle down with one person eventually and do the slice of suburbia, happily every after thing (although I think I do still want to do it in the city ).

 

 

 

I was mostly commenting on co-dependency, and on the people I know who are literally terrified to be alone for even five minutes. They tend to either stay in bad relationships forever, or to jump quickly from one bad relationship to another. They are people who have never found a sense of self that didn't involve being one-half of a duo, and they will sometimes stay in god-awful relationships full of emotional or even physical abuse rather than face their fear of leaving. Or, more often, as Kevin depicted so well in this story, they will just "settle", despite the fact that they don't even like each other all that much, because it's all they know how to do.

Goodness, this describes a friend of mine perfectly! He's petrified of being alone and simply does not know what to with himself. As a result he's intensely clingly and has a tendency to come on too strong. I can usually handle that, but I worry about him and his lack of independence.

 

A month or so ago I had church with him and another friend (who is his roommate). After church we went our separate ways and I returned to my apartment to get ready for a lunch/afternoon get-together I had planned with someone else. While I was getting ready I received a frantic call from my co-dependent friend. He was very upset because our other friend (his roommate) had plans with his family that afternoon, and he now "didn't know what to do with himself"

 

And he was quite alarmed and distressed. I just can't fathom becoming so flustered simply because you don't have plans one afternoon. Naturally I ended up inviting him to come with me to my lunch thing (it was either that or be on cell phone standby anyway )

 

 

 

 

But yeah, that's perhaps a bit off-topic. As I said, I want to address all the other points later, but I will generally say that my main purpose in writing the story was to ask the questions,

 

• - "Are these two people better off together or alone?"
  
• - "Should they break up?"
  
• - "Why can't they?"
  
• - "Will they stay together forever?"
  
• - "Will they ever have a 'happy' relationship in the traditional sense?"
  
• - "Do they need one?"
  
• - "Are they happy in their own way?"
  

 

-Kevin

Edited July 25, 2008 by AFriendlyFace

[NickolasJames8]

Wow, Kevin, what a wonderful story. It really makes me look back on my last relationship and see so many things that went right and wrong, almost like looking in a mirror. I'm glad that there was no real resolution between them, other than the fact that they can admit to each other that they suck as a couple, but they suck more when they're split up. Hopefully the two of them can get into couple's counseling and figure out how to be happy in their lives, even if it isn't as an item.

[YaP]

I really enjoyed reading this story. I certainly didn't expect a plot like this (which is a good thing, i like surprises ). I was drawn between hoping they would finally find a way to stop hurting each other, or would break up for good at the end. But it seems the way their love-hate relationship is - is just the way it is supposed to be for them. And maybe they will even find some happiness after they give up on trying to change it, and just accept it the way it is.

 

Great work Kevin !

[Richard Lyon]

This story raises lots of interesting questions about relationships in general beyond the two delightfully quirky characters involved. Whatever it is that holds relationships together beyond initial infatuation, it is not moonlight and roses. It's really hard to define when the various forms of give and take move from "healthy" mutual support to "unhealthy" co-dependency.

 

Personally I figured out a long time ago that I am not a relationship person. The long term relationships that I have observed from the outside have usually looked to me like they cost a lot to maintain. Of course nobody can fully appreciate the reality of any particular relationship from outside. It's only the people involved who can really decide if they are better off with it or without it.

 

This was a most enjoyable read. It's was a nice chance of pace from conventional romance.

[MikeL]

I'm sorry to have to disagree so strongly with a friend, but, to me this is like saying 'you'd be happier if you were straight and married'.

 

People are different. The same things do not make everyone happy. Not everyone enjoys heterosexual sex. Not everyone enjoys living with another person as part of a couple.

 

Do you pity a gay man because he hasn't yet found the right woman he can settle down with? So why pity a person who enjoys living on his own? Why assume that he's just not met the right person yet?

 

Some people enjoy being independent. They relish the freedom to eat, sleep, watch TV, go out, stay in, write, read, listen to music, etc without having to take into account what anyone else wants. They enjoy the fact that they can have solitude to think and meditate whenever they want. For someone who enjoys living alone, being on their own doesn't mean they are lonely. They might well have lots of friends, a good social life and a good sex life. They enjoy having visitors but always they are relieved to get their home back to themselves.

 

Such 'loners' might be in a minority, but it doesn't mean that they would be happier if they were like everyone else. We are all different. We have different needs, different desires, different priorities. Just because the majority of people might be happier sharing their lives with an intimate partner doesn't mean that everyone will be.

 

So, despite the fact that I like and respect Mike a lot, I think that the statement quoted above is presumptuous almost to the point of being insulting.

 

Kit

Kit...it's OK to disagree with a friend. I'm not sure we disagree all that much, although you may have misunderstood what I meant (or what I meant to say).

 

Everything I said applies to everyone...gay or straight. I understand some are very happy being alone, independent, and/or self-sufficient. I would only urge all of them to be open to the possibility of a relationship with someone else. I certainly would not say that a heterosexual relationship is good for a homosexual person, but I earnestly believe a loving, committed relationship is preferred over solitude.

 

I don't pity the gay man who hasn't found the "right" woman. Indeed, I don't think there is a right woman for a gay man...not for purposes of marriage of cohabitation.

 

Now it appears I may have misunderstood CR's original statement:

Reading this made me happy to be single.

She later explained:

All I meant was that I'd rather be alone than be in a bad, unhealthy, miserable relationship due to fear of being alone.

I have no argument with that.

 

I still contend that the happiest of singles (gay or straight) would be happier still in the right relationship.

 

You are still my friend and I yours.

[kitten]

Kit...it's OK to disagree with a friend. I'm not sure we disagree all that much, although you may have misunderstood what I meant (or what I meant to say).

 

You are still my friend and I yours.

 

Thank you

 

I still contend that the happiest of singles (gay or straight) would be happier still in the right relationship.

 

There doesn't seem to be much room for misunderstanding in the above quote.

 

I contend that there are some happy singles (albeit a minority) who would be less happy in any form of of live-together relationship. So I'm afraid it is a basic disagreement.

 

People are not all the same, and just because something makes most people happy doesn't mean that the same thing will make everyone happy.

 

Now, as far as I know, there is no conclusive evidence that my contention is correct and your contention is wrong. However, if mine is wrong, and if people accept it, the worst that could happen is that a happy single might not bother to look for even greater happiness in a relationship, so he/she is still happy, but just less happy than he/she might have been.

 

If your contention is wrong, and if people accept it, then someone who is really happier as a single might become unhappy and might also make other people unhappy. This is because, believing your view to be true, they will feel like they are missing out, and they will look for the 'ideal' relationship, which for them will not exist. Their search will be futile, they will feel like a failure and be unhappy. They will probably also make their partners unhappy.

 

I apologise if I seem to be making too big a deal of this, but the assumption that everyone would be happier in a relationship irks me sometimes. This is because behind that assumption there is the implication that there is something 'abnormal' (or just plain pig-headed) about a person who is really happier outside of an intimate relationship.

 

There seems to be an analogous assumption in general society that the lives of all heterosexual married couples would be improved/enriched if they had children. This is probably true of most such couples. However, there may be exceptions, and by making these exceptional couples feel that there is something wrong with them, society pressurises them into having children. That couple will then be less happy, and the chances are that the children, who were not really wanted, will be resented. The children will then have to suffer a less-than-ideal emotional atmosphere during childhood.

 

I don't believe that there is a one-size-fits-all formula that will make all people happier, even if that formula works for the vast majority. I do believe that people can be made unhappy if they are led to believe that such a one-size-fits-all formula really exists.

 

Kit

[BeaStKid]

Kevin,

 

This story was a ride of emotions for me. It had me confused in the beginning as to why these two people were in a relationship when they obviously couldn't stand each other. Then came the emotion of shock, learning about their past. Then the warm fuzzy feeling and the smacking of the forehead when I realized what Greg and Trevor shared.

 

Truly, this is one story that I thoroughly enjoyed reading. A splendid piece of writing.

 

BeaStKid

[AFriendlyFace]

Since there are so few anthology entries, I think I can give feedback to all of them this afternoon. This is the one I read first. As usual with Kevin's work, there's a plethora of funny lines. There didn't seem to be much of a plot, so I imagine the story is one of those "peeks into someone's life" sort of works. I think it did succeed in creating that sense of world/atmosphere. In short, this was a nice, pleasant little read.

Thanks Corvus, I think that's generally true of the majority of my stories. I'm naturally more interested in people, emotions, feelings etc. than on actual events and action. I'm sure that shows in my stories. I think I probably tend to write much more character than plot based tales.

 

On the other hand, I didn't really enjoy the abrupt changes in emotion. I felt as though I'd landed in a daytime soap opera. Greg and Trevor fight and make up very fast -- not necessarily in terms of the time within the plot, but, rather, in terms of the pacing between.

I see your point...obviously though I did that on purpose. I was less inclined to write about the mundane events of their lives (and obviously there would have been quite a few given how long they'd been together) precisely because I wanted to show the highs and lows.

 

Do you feel like the story would have benefit from some more 'down time'? Would have made the dramatic bits ultimately more effective and resonating? I'd really love thoughts and feedback on this!

 

Moreover, although I did get a rather fuzzy feel from Trevor and Greg's lovey-dovey-ness, the atmosphere wasn't convincing enough to make me stop wondering, So what's the point?

You mean what's the point of reading? What's the point of Trevor and Greg's relationship? Or what's the point of the story itself?

 

If it's the point of reading, then my objective was to entertain my reader and portray a controversial, atypical relationship. I wanted to get people thinking about this relationship and questioning whether or not the characters should be together. I wanted people to imagine themselves in such a relationship and decide how they would have acted and reacted, whether it would have been worth it to them. I wanted to show that Trevor and Greg were both to blame for their dysfunction and also both to credit (or perhaps blame again?) for the survival of their relationship. Basically I wanted to show that they both kept screwing up but they both kept fighting to make it work. Lastly and most simply I wanted to ask the questions of "how much is too much?" "What lines can't be crossed?" "When should a couple give up?"

 

What's the point of Trevor and Greg's relationship? That's kind of a subjective answer and will depend on how the readers answer the questions above. I hesitate to say what I think is the objective point of their relationship because that would still just be my interpretation and it would squelch other opinions.

 

What's the point of the story? What's the point of any story? As I said, this one was mostly to get people thinking about how they viewed relationships and what is and isn't dysfunctional. I admit that there really wasn't any change for Trevor and Greg. One could argue that they ostensibly decided to make a firmer commitment to keep making each other miserable, but the whole thing is subjective and by the very nature of their relationship there's a good chance that they'll break their own rules. There's also a good chance that they'll get back together regardless. So did this 'story' see in character growth? Any development in terms of their relationship? As I said, that's a subjective opinion. I would tentatively say that they did renew and deepen their commitment in the end. I won't say whether I think that's a good thing or a bad thing though.

 

I guess ultimately the story was only about the lives of these two characters and their feelings for each other, but the purpose is only in how it is interpreted by the reader and not actually in plot or character development. Thanks for making me consider this more.

 

I would recommend it to someone who's in the mood for sugar.

So you ultimately view it as a 'happy', positive sort of story then? Good to know

 

Greg and Trevor are the kind of couple that is miserable both together and without each other. I'd have to say their relationship isn't the healthiest in existence. Kevin, this is your best anthology yet, and I am certainly pleased with it. Keep up the great work.

Thanks Tim! So you preferred it to If No One Notices? I'd actually love to hear other thoughts on this. Which one do you guys like better?

 

As I said, this anthology was actually supposed to be for last anthology, but I misunderstood the topic

 

I can't really decide which anthology of yours I liked better. The last one was painful and made me sad...just like Greg's...you two are EVIL.

LOL, thanks, Tiff! I think

 

This one didn't exactly leave me feeling happy either, although the ending did give a sense of hope. Greg and Trevor do love one another, and as much as Greg tries to be cold out of pride or something, he's a big ol' softies...when Trevor's sleeping. I liked that at the very end, he was the most truthful. He had said he loved Trevor earlier in their conversation, but he never got emotional. The tears at the end was perfect. It really hit home that as dangerous and codependnt as their relationship was, they'd always be together.

Good observations!

 

I was trying to portray Greg and Trevor in very different ways but ultimately show that neither was really better-adjusted or easier to get along with than the other.

 

In many ways I think Greg comes off as the traditional, cold, unemotional, stand-offish male, and like many of these types it doesn't mean he doesn't care, sometimes he can even say that he cares, what it means is that he won't show that he cares openly (only doing so after Trevor's gone to bed).

 

With Trevor, I suppose he's actually more of the traditional overly emotional, nagging 'female'. He's romantic, but he gets nasty when his expectations aren't met. He'll say and act as though he cares, but he'll purposely do things to test Greg, perhaps even to hurt him. He's constantly looking for and needing proof that Greg cares.

 

In many ways I feel like this story would have worked almost as well if Trevor had simply been a woman. Indeed, I feel like this story expresses gender/relationship roles that I normally purposely try to circumvent. I by no means whatsoever mean to say that this is how I actually view the average man or the average 'woman'. Nor is it a reflection of how I view gay male and/or lesbian relationships that do adhere to these more structured roles of dominant/passive etc.

 

However, it's certainly no coincidence that their relationship is heavy on 'traditional' roles and as such I've portrayed it as so painful and many times unsatisfying. I didn't even mean to do it, but it's probably a commentary of my general attitude toward traditional roles in a relationship (male/female, male/male, or female/female, I just don't like set relationship roles and expectations).

 

Perhaps that's also why I ultimately gave the relationship some hope. I personally think that 'traditional' relationships are less than ideal, but I think it is possible for them to survive and that many people even purposely enter them. So by giving Trevor and Greg a little hope, or a little light at the end of the tunnel, I wanted to say that "this isn't how I think it should be done, but if it works..."

 

 

 

Anyway, which character did you like better? Do you think my assessment of relationship roles is accurate and valid with regards to this relationship?

 

 

I'd meant to reply to most of the comments in this thread with this post, but I've already gone on for quite awhile so I'll stop here for now.

 

I'd love to hear back from you, Corvus and Tiff, about what you thought of my comments to your questions/comments, and I'd also love to hear what others thought about these issues!

 

 

Thanks everyone

 

-Kevin

[Cynical Romantic]

I find it interesting that both your recent anthology stories - this one and "If No One Notices" were about completely different topics, and had completely different characters, but they had one thing in common: They both made me screamingly mad at the characters (that's a compliment, by the way; it meant your characters were real enough to make me want to wring their necks).

 

In one story, you have a suicidally depressed teenager who is trapped in the prison of his own mind, and he's incredibly sympathetic, of course, but it's so frustrating because all he has to do is reach out and ask for help in order to free himself, and he doesn't know how. In the other, you have a couple who could have been happy a long time ago if they dared to imagine a future where they could each build a sense of self, and find people who would love them for that self, rather than clinging to co-dependency.

 

You are truly the master of painting portraits of characters struggling with these very real issues. Of course, it always seems simple to the outside observer. It's never simple when you're in that situation, though. You portray that very realistically.

 

As for what you were trying to accomplish here, I'd say it was successful. Due to how much of a debate there seems to be over whether this relationship is good for the two characters or not, I think you toed the line very artfully. The rest, as they say, is all subject to interpretation.

[steph]

Do you feel like the story would have benefit from some more 'down time'? Would have made the dramatic bits ultimately more effective and resonating? I'd really love thoughts and feedback on this!

absolutely not. I think it flowed quite nicely.

 

So you ultimately view it as a 'happy', positive sort of story then?

absolutely not!

 

Anyway, which character did you like better? Do you think my assessment of relationship roles is accurate and valid with regards to this relationship?

neither and yes.

 

I agree w/ MikeL that they are both immature and need to learn how to compromise a little. I don't think either of them would be any better with anyone else, so I guess they deserve each other.

[Dion]

I enjoyed this story. The constant back-and-forth, the flashes into their past. Even the mention of how they'd been ready to leave so many times they couldn't get assistance moving because no one took them seriously anymore.

 

I don't think Greg and Trevor have the 'perfect' relationship in the typical sense. I do think it's perfect for them, however. Greg knows that Trevor just wants confirmation for what they have. I'm not sure why he refuses to give it to him, unless it would make him feel weak. On the other hand, I'm equally positive Trevor knows what they have is permanent and that Greg will never cede to some kind of public affirmation, so pushing for that is rather pointless.

 

I'm reminded of a phrase I heard once: "If I didn't act the way I do, you wouldn't know it was me."

 

Great job, Kevin!

[AFriendlyFace]

I really, really liked this very well written story.

The humour and witty dialogue provide an excellent counterpoint to an underlying darkness. This sort of unhappy but co-dependant relationship is very realistic - I've seen such relationships myself, though thankfully from the outside.

Thank you very much, Kit!

 

That's pretty much what I was going for in terms of the tone of the story. I wanted dark, but I wanted palatable as well. Actually, eventually I intend to write a properly 'dark' story (and a properly 'happy' story). Right now though it's more enjoyable to balance the two. With this one and If No One Notices I was definitely going for dark overall (obviously much more so with INON).

 

Although we may get pleasure from reading about the sort of idealised romantic relationships we can find in some other stories, there is also the implication that we may be failures if we can't achieve that ideal state. On the other hand, when we compare our relationships to that in 'Giving Up' we can (hopefully!) feel that we have achieved better. We can experience a sort of Schadenfreude.

 

I regret to have to admit that this is the first of Kevin's stories that I've read, but it has certainly made me want to go and read more.

 

Thanks for a great story!

Thank you very much! I hope you do get a chance to check out my other work

 

How different this is in tone to "BMAD"!

 

This is the first of the anthology entries that I read, and I was very impressed at how well you managed to describe, in a few poignant scenes, what is essentially my worst nightmare.

 

See, all my life, I've had friends who have stayed in codependent relationships simply because they were afraid of being alone or, like your characters, they "don't know who they are" without the other person. And all my life, I felt sorry for them, just like I feel sorry for Greg and Trevor.

 

I know they do love each other in their own way, but they just can't see that their form of love is slowly killing them both. I always got so mad at people who would stay in a bad relationship for the wrong reasons, and I found myself getting similarly frustrated with Greg and Trevor. I've always been the fiercely independent type - maybe a bit too much so - but I've never wanted to fall into the trap you describe so well in your story.

 

Great job! Reading this made me happy to be single.

Despite trying to write the actual story in a non-biased, fair way that presents a case for both sides...this is definitely a good assessment of how I would feel in either of their situations.

 

In all honestly, Trevor and Greg manage to break all three of my 'cardinal rules' when it comes to dating.

 

I've always said that I would never stay in a relationship in which:

 

-There is every any physical or emotional abuse/violence

-There is any cheating

-There is an overly structured, role centric focus and dynamic

 

 

So obviously I personally would have left the relationship long ago (I HOPE!!), but I hoped to show that perhaps that's not always as easy as it sounds, and maybe, just maybe, these sorts of relationships can hold some positive value for the people involved.

 

Also, I tried to indicate that the physical violence and cheating were one-time incidents (which I believe they very seldom actually are in real life, but in the story I tried to indicate that they were).

 

Quelle domage! I can think of no happier situation in life than to be in a loving, committed relationship. Having someone with whom to share your hopes and dreams, someone to receive and return your love, will make you complete.

 

With so many marriages ending in divorce and so many couples (gay and straight) living together for the sake of convenience rather than due to a commitment to each other, relationships often seem bleak and unattractive. But if two people can make a commitment and develop mutual trust, love can flourish.

 

Admittedly, Greg and Trevor don't have their act together. They are immature. Neither has ever made an honest commitment to the other. It takes some effort to be happy in a relationship. It takes a heap of living to make a house a home.

 

Please don't take comfort in being alone. There is something better...something that can make you happier still.

I think this is an excellent assessment as well, Mike! Thank you very much!

 

Such a balanced opinion of views is exactly what I was shooting for! If everyone had felt one way or the other I'd have been very disappointed.

 

Also, I think that is a very compelling case, and obviously a good enough case for Trevor and Greg.

 

 

It's strange to me that people seem to think that the relationship between Greg and Trevor isn't a good one.

 

Yes, it's volatile. Yes, it's not smooth sailing for them. But just because they can't say they like each other, that doesn't mean they don't. Look at the actions, not the words. They have a strong relationship, one that has weathered a lot of storms. They've done a lot of experimenting about how to live together, and some of those experiments haven't worked, but they're still together.

 

Is it really unhealthy? It's not normal, but that doesn't make it wrong. It is the right relationship for them. We only see snippets of their lives together, but while they've had crises, they've always come back to each other. If it was really that unhealthy or unhappy, I don't think that would be the case. They may be prone to hysterics and theatrical behaviour, but that's their personalities.

 

Just my opinion

That is a really excellent point, Graeme!

 

Another thing I wanted to show is indeed that they had weathered a lot of storms, that they had 'gone throw hell' in their relationship and hung on. Perhaps this is a bit bleak and negative, but what relationship is without its trials and tribulations? Maybe Greg and Trevor have had a few more than most couples, but I think nearly every couple that's together very long-term goes through at least one or two 'crises'.

 

I think these crises inevitably change the dynamic of the relationship and the surface way in which the couple interact. If there's one major aspect of the story that was in my original objective that ultimately got left out, it was emphasizing that Trevor and Greg once had a very happy, affectionate relationship. It was always misery and arguments, they did have their fair share of good times - especially in the beginning before events jaded them.

 

As I said, I failed to show that though. It was partly an unintentional failing, but it was also because I allowed the story to take itself in the direction that felt right. Ultimately focusing on their happy, conflict-free times didn't feel 'right' for the story.

 

I actually think that by so doing I would have made it a much darker, more cynical piece. Instead of "look at this couple always at each other's throats" it would have been, "look at this couple that was once so sweet that is now always at each other's throats"

 

So you guys tell me, would have been more depressing to show a relationship that very clearing went from soft and tender to hardened and acerbic?

[AFriendlyFace]

Wow, Kevin, what a wonderful story. It really makes me look back on my last relationship and see so many things that went right and wrong, almost like looking in a mirror. I'm glad that there was no real resolution between them, other than the fact that they can admit to each other that they suck as a couple, but they suck more when they're split up. Hopefully the two of them can get into couple's counseling and figure out how to be happy in their lives, even if it isn't as an item.

Wow, thanks for the praise, Nick! I'm really touched and flattered!

 

I agree that ideally they could learn better interpersonal skills!!!

 

I really enjoyed reading this story. I certainly didn't expect a plot like this (which is a good thing, i like surprises ). I was drawn between hoping they would finally find a way to stop hurting each other, or would break up for good at the end. But it seems the way their love-hate relationship is - is just the way it is supposed to be for them. And maybe they will even find some happiness after they give up on trying to change it, and just accept it the way it is.

 

Great work Kevin !

Thanks Pete!

 

I'm glad you were surprised!

 

Trevor and Greg definitely 'gave up' on something. It's a bit open to interpretation what exactly they gave up. But if I portrayed any actual change in their relationship I wanted it to be that henceforth they will 'give up' on some certain set of expectations. Perhaps the expectation of ever separating for good. Perhaps the expectation of every having an openly affectionate relationship (again?). Perhaps the expectation that either of them will ever change. Or, perhaps more positively, the expectation that they would continue to purposely hurt each other.

 

This story raises lots of interesting questions about relationships in general beyond the two delightfully quirky characters involved. Whatever it is that holds relationships together beyond initial infatuation, it is not moonlight and roses. It's really hard to define when the various forms of give and take move from "healthy" mutual support to "unhealthy" co-dependency.

That's an great point, Richard!

 

Actually, that was another theme I wanted to peripherally explore. I think very often there is a (typically true perception) that young love is sweet and tender, and 'old love' is more enduring but ultimately less romantic and more functional, perhaps even hardened in this way. I think to some extent that's very natural and unavoidable. As with knowing the difference between a healthy relationship of give and take versus one of co-dependency, it's also difficult to know the difference between a 'naturally seasoned' relationship and one that has just plain soured.

 

Personally I figured out a long time ago that I am not a relationship person. The long term relationships that I have observed from the outside have usually looked to me like they cost a lot to maintain. Of course nobody can fully appreciate the reality of any particular relationship from outside. It's only the people involved who can really decide if they are better off with it or without it.

 

This was a most enjoyable read. It's was a nice chance of pace from conventional romance.

Thanks very much, Richard

 

Kevin,

 

This story was a ride of emotions for me. It had me confused in the beginning as to why these two people were in a relationship when they obviously couldn't stand each other. Then came the emotion of shock, learning about their past. Then the warm fuzzy feeling and the smacking of the forehead when I realized what Greg and Trevor shared.

 

Truly, this is one story that I thoroughly enjoyed reading. A splendid piece of writing.

 

BeaStKid

Thank you Beasty! These comments mean a lot to me and really cut to the heart of what I was trying to do

 

I find it interesting that both your recent anthology stories - this one and "If No One Notices" were about completely different topics, and had completely different characters, but they had one thing in common: They both made me screamingly mad at the characters (that's a compliment, by the way; it meant your characters were real enough to make me want to wring their necks).

 

In one story, you have a suicidally depressed teenager who is trapped in the prison of his own mind, and he's incredibly sympathetic, of course, but it's so frustrating because all he has to do is reach out and ask for help in order to free himself, and he doesn't know how. In the other, you have a couple who could have been happy a long time ago if they dared to imagine a future where they could each build a sense of self, and find people who would love them for that self, rather than clinging to co-dependency.

Thanks CR

 

I hadn't truly thought about it until you pointed this out, but now that I think about, I think all my stories (both posted and the ones in various stages of completion which I haven't posted yet), address very different topics and themes. I think they have a lot of similarities, but I definitely not the kind of author who is going to repeatedly write stories about X, Y, or Z topic. Well at least I haven't done that yet anyway

 

 

You are truly the master of painting portraits of characters struggling with these very real issues. Of course, it always seems simple to the outside observer. It's never simple when you're in that situation, though. You portray that very realistically.

 

As for what you were trying to accomplish here, I'd say it was successful. Due to how much of a debate there seems to be over whether this relationship is good for the two characters or not, I think you toed the line very artfully. The rest, as they say, is all subject to interpretation.

Wow, thank you very much

 

absolutely not. I think it flowed quite nicely.

 

 

absolutely not!

 

 

neither and yes.

 

I agree w/ MikeL that they are both immature and need to learn how to compromise a little. I don't think either of them would be any better with anyone else, so I guess they deserve each other.

Thanks, Steph!

 

I was a bit worried about the flow. I was concerned that it might have drug on a bit right before the end.

 

I enjoyed this story. The constant back-and-forth, the flashes into their past. Even the mention of how they'd been ready to leave so many times they couldn't get assistance moving because no one took them seriously anymore.

 

I don't think Greg and Trevor have the 'perfect' relationship in the typical sense. I do think it's perfect for them, however. Greg knows that Trevor just wants confirmation for what they have. I'm not sure why he refuses to give it to him, unless it would make him feel weak. On the other hand, I'm equally positive Trevor knows what they have is permanent and that Greg will never cede to some kind of public affirmation, so pushing for that is rather pointless.

I'm reminded of a phrase I heard once: "If I didn't act the way I do, you wouldn't know it was me."

 

Great job, Kevin!

Thank you very much, Dion! I really appreciate that!

 

With regards to your bolded comment, I think it's very very accurate. It also reminds me of something amusing I once saw on either a movie or on television. It basically went like this:

 

Character one: "What's with you? Why are you acting so strangely?"

Character two: "I'm just trying to be nice"

Character one: "Well stop it. I didn't fall in love with someone nice. I fell in love with you"

 

 

Perhaps that's really what Greg and Trevor's relationship comes down to

 

 

 

Thanks all

Kevin

[corvus]

To adequately respond to Kevin's inquiries, I'll provide more commentary than did my previous review. It'll be a bit more frank (i.e. harsh), but, since I want people to respond honestly to what I write, I better not be a hypocrite and do the opposite.

 

I read stories predominantly to be emotionally engaged and moved. Trevor and Greg's story didn't engage me very much because: a) I couldn't take the narrative voice seriously, and b ) I couldn't take the characters seriously.

 

Example of a):

Trevor slowly nodded and their shared a painful kiss through mutually busted lips.

Excuse me, but how do you share a kiss *through* lips? And -- "mutually busted"? Are we talking about Al Capone or ghosts? I wouldn't object if this story were a parody, but since it doesn't seem to be one, I'm afraid this is simply writing that doesn't work. I don't know what you wanted from the reader, Kevin, but the response it elicited from me was a disbelieving choke.

 

I've singled this out because it's an egregious example. But there's a lot of clumsiness throughout the story, such as the excessive and maudlin descriptions, the strange lack of commas (have you been talking to Gary??), etc. These, unfortunately, make me unable to take what's written seriously.

 

Explanation of b ):

Trevor and Greg had lots of volcanic interactions. Lots of highs and lows, yes. But I never had a feeling that what I was reading involved real people interacting. I'll take the scene starting with Trevor's infidelity as my example. Firstly, Trevor's motivation would be feasible only if he were stupid, arrogant, or manipulative (or a combination of all three -- but given his dialogue, only the first is possible). Secondly, the mis en scene is unrealistic -- except in horribly corny TV serials, you'd notice if you were pouring out your heart in a supermarket. Thirdly, the dialogue ("I'll follow you anywhere!") would give anyone diabetes.

 

Objection a) is based on tenants of what I believe good writing should be; objection b ) is based on my personal taste.

 

I'll now respond to the rest of Kevin's comments.

 

 

 

 

I see your point...obviously though I did that on purpose. I was less inclined to write about the mundane events of their lives (and obviously there would have been quite a few given how long they'd been together) precisely because I wanted to show the highs and lows.

I don't object to your portraying highs and lows, but I'd like to see highs and lows I can actually believe in.

 

Do you feel like the story would have benefit from some more 'down time'? Would have made the dramatic bits ultimately more effective and resonating? I'd really love thoughts and feedback on this!

Since I didn't feel involved in the highs and lows (i.e. they didn't affect or resonate with me), I didn't feel the story needed more down time.

 

If it's the point of reading, then my objective was to entertain my reader and portray a controversial, atypical relationship. I wanted to get people thinking about this relationship and questioning whether or not the characters should be together. I wanted people to imagine themselves in such a relationship and decide how they would have acted and reacted, whether it would have been worth it to them. I wanted to show that Trevor and Greg were both to blame for their dysfunction and also both to credit (or perhaps blame again?) for the survival of their relationship. Basically I wanted to show that they both kept screwing up but they both kept fighting to make it work. Lastly and most simply I wanted to ask the questions of "how much is too much?" "What lines can't be crossed?" "When should a couple give up?"

Hmm. I'll refrain on the entertaining bit. You did portray a controversial and atypical relationship, but I didn't think about whether the characters should be together, because I was more concerned with how I'd review the story frankly without being... mean. I couldn't imagine myself being as melodramatic as either Trevor or Greg, so I didn't put myself in their shoes. The closest I came to considering the relationshippy questions you aimed for the reader to think about was to be aghast at how similar Trevor's words were to my ex's. He'd say: "I love you!" "I know it's not a justification for _______, but I love you!" "I've tried so hard to forget you, but I caaan't!" later: "I know you hate to hear this, but I love you!"

 

What's the point of Trevor and Greg's relationship? That's kind of a subjective answer and will depend on how the readers answer the questions above. I hesitate to say what I think is the objective point of their relationship because that would still just be my interpretation and it would squelch other opinions.

Won't squelch mine.

 

What's the point of the story? What's the point of any story? As I said, this one was mostly to get people thinking about how they viewed relationships and what is and isn't dysfunctional. I admit that there really wasn't any change for Trevor and Greg. One could argue that they ostensibly decided to make a firmer commitment to keep making each other miserable, but the whole thing is subjective and by the very nature of their relationship there's a good chance that they'll break their own rules. There's also a good chance that they'll get back together regardless. So did this 'story' see in character growth? Any development in terms of their relationship? As I said, that's a subjective opinion. I would tentatively say that they did renew and deepen their commitment in the end. I won't say whether I think that's a good thing or a bad thing though.

 

I guess ultimately the story was only about the lives of these two characters and their feelings for each other, but the purpose is only in how it is interpreted by the reader and not actually in plot or character development. Thanks for making me consider this more.

The purpose of a story should never be to *demonstrate* plot or character development. It uses plot and character development for entertainment and emotional engagement. Please cross reference my response from earlier re: getting the reader to think about Trevor and Greg.

 

 

 

Kevin, after reading your thoughts about gender roles, etc., I went back to your story, because I thought, Wow, that sounds cool, did I overlook all this? I did. It was so buried under objections a) and b ) that I didn't notice. Since I'm unwilling to let day time soaps get redeemed just because they deal with gender roles, I'm afraid I can't make the same exemption for your story.

 

 

Edited because all of my b )'s became sunglasses... rawr...

Edited July 29, 2008 by corvus

[Richard Lyon]

 

"I read stories predominantly to be emotionally engaged and moved. Trevor and Greg's story didn't engage me very much because: a) I couldn't take the narrative voice seriously, and b ) I couldn't take the characters seriously."

 

I found it quite easy to take them seriously. Perhaps that comes from ample experiences with the messiness of life and relationships. Their situation may have been a slight exaggeration for dramatic effect, but it felt like reality to me.