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[Sasha Distan] Ladies' Man - American Songbook Track 9


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I did the thank-you dance in my review, but I can repeat it here if you like ?  :lol:

 

Such a great chapter, now we all feel a lot better about Clem after the sadness and anger over the rape chapter.

Thank you so much for not letting us wait.  :hug:

After the double whammy of chapter 3 and Heart Brake (didn't realise that would be out this week too) I figure you guys deserved some cheering up.

 

I get why you think this and to be honest, I feel almost guilty about my review. I am happy for Clem....but something doesn't feel right to me and I can't pretend otherwise. I am not even sure what my problem is...maybe it's just a time factor...or the shock of a character like Nathan...I am sure Sasha will get me there...

What Tim said about chapter 1 is pretty dead on. After all, Clem has only ever had the opportunity to be with people from his sort of rough, manly, farm-hand circle; but he's always liked the pretty guys.
 

Oh, and a completely different matter:

 

Am I the only one wondering if Ash saw and touched Clem in the gay bar, and that's why he dares to flirt with him in the shop?

Maybe even followed Clem into the shop?

Oh you are shrewd! 

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Oh, and a completely different matter:

 

Am I the only one wondering if Ash saw and touched Clem in the gay bar, and that's why he dares to flirt with him in the shop?

Maybe even followed Clem into the shop?

Hmmm, I was wondering that myself. No one flirts that obviously with a big cowboy type (saying he wants to watch Clem try on his shirt) without some previous Intel. Well not unless you're big enough not to care that the guy might try to kick your butt.

 

Regarding "types": who said that Nate was Clem's type in the first place? Clem now has the freedom and courage to go out and discover what his type really is now that he has realized that he didn't want what Nate was offering.  There should also be some allowance for maturity.  What Clem thought he wanted when he was 22 does not mean its what he wants at 25.  People grow and evolve. Tastes and priorities change.

Edited by LitLover
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I think the friendship between Clem and Nate would have eventually died even if they had not become involved sexually. Nate would have continued the homophobic crap because I think he has it in his head that he cannot "look" gay.

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I think the friendship between Clem and Nate would have eventually died even if they had not become involved sexually. Nate would have continued the homophobic crap because I think he has it in his head that he cannot "look" gay.

 

It makes me sad that you say that, because I would have hoped that if enough people called Nate on his unacceptable behavior he might change. But I guess there isn't anyone whose opinion he cares about, and other people around him might consider his views normal. We certainly haven't seen anyone else react badly to Nate's homophobic rantings. Or did he perhaps only say them to Clem?

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i don't think anyone is irredeemable.

 

I think Nate has some really deep seated issues about not looking gay.

 

And we have not seen anyone else react badly to his homophobic BS because we have not seen him spout any around others. The only scene we have seen him in around anyone else was in the diner. 

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But I guess there isn't anyone whose opinion he cares about, and other people around him might consider his views normal.

 

Huh, I deleted my post and now I can't quite remember what I said...

 

Basically, if Nate is one of two out gay men in town, then he sort of defines what gayness is locally... and if he is homophobic, then people like Madison, if they're straight, would not necessarily feel comfortable challenging him, because, they'd think, surely he knows the definition of "normal" gayness better than they do?

 

Oh and I want to defend the lovely Ashlee, clips and makeup and all. He's exactly the kind of guy Clem has yearned after, the kind that's been unattainable, and he's cheerfully admitted to wanting to see Clem undress. This is what Clem needs more of! Someone to take him shopping and compliment him, at a bare minimum, and maybe they can even date and Clem can get to experience sex with actual lube :rolleyes:  I'm pro-Ashlee.  

Edited by Irritable1
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There is so much to say that I can't say!

 

 

It makes me sad that you say that, because I would have hoped that if enough people called Nate on his unacceptable behavior he might change. 

 

I agree with both you and ma. I do think that if enough people, or people Nate actually respected, had a go at him for what he said and how he said it, then he might change - outwardly. I think it would take a lot more than that to make him change on the inside after... oh! but i mustn't give spoilers...

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OK, I'm stumped:

 

What the heck is wrong with the name "Ashlee"?

 

You've evoked the dread spectre of the Simpsons, sweetheart. It's like naming a fictional UK footballer's boyfriend just Jordan. People will flinch without knowing why. (Edit: It took me four hours groping around in my head for the source of the discomfort before I could find it).

 

On the bright side, you've made the name Zupan sexy to me, so who's to say you can't rehab Ashlee too? Never say never!

Edited by Irritable1
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OK, I'm stumped:

 

What the heck is wrong with the name "Ashlee"?

Honestly I was put off by the name at first too. It immediately brought to mind a catty, "twinky" club bunny/party boy type, then I mentally slapped myself for being a judgmental/stereotyping brat and got over it. Ashlee's interactions with Clem make him seem like a sweet and kind (and flirty-fun) young man. Clem could use that in his life.

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LitLover, check out Sasha's story Unexpected Liaisons if you get a chance. I think you might like it.

Zupan and Zander? Yeah, I loved that one! The name Zupan is definitely sexy after that story! I just realized that the name Ashlee in this story made me picture "Ash-lay" from Redemption (before the previously mentioned mental slap that is).

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Zupan and Zander? Yeah, I loved that one! The name Zupan is definitely sexy after that story! I just realized that the name Ashlee in this story made me picture "Ash-lay" from Redemption (before the previously mentioned mental slap that is).

:facepalm:  :facepalm:

 

 

Edit LitLover is absolutely right, Sasha. Something must be done.

 

Edit2: Or.. I don't know. It'd be nice to have a happy Ash-lay (ee)

Edited by Irritable1
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You know, it's not about type for me in this story. I have the flu so I may not make sense but...I guess what bothers me is that Clem was in love with Nathan and would have been happy with the big strong cowboy if he was tender and giving and put Clem first. I may be wrong but I don't agree that Clem was always attracted to another type...that would mean he would never have been truly happy no matter what Nathan was like. I think Nathan's actions made Clem crave softness and sweetness and caring. It bothers me that Clem looks at masculine guys and sees what he doesn't want (Nathan). That is stereotyping as well...that twinky guys deliver something different from masculine guys. I am a big masculine guy and I am as sweet and loving as any twink. It seems like Nathan has driven him to the other end of the spectrum where he is convinced it is where he'll find what he wants...and so crosses off anyone with a rougher appearance. There is a conflict within him that I resent. His actions at this point seem fear driven...If he looks in the mirror he will see exactly what he is avoiding, yet he is a really great guy. In my ideal world he wouldn't pass me over because of how I look...but it seems that he would right now. If Ash is the guy for him...then great...but it shouldn't be because he is girl pretty  and wears eyeliner....

 

 

EDIT: for future reference, I will be referring to Ashlee as Ash...sorry Sasha

Edited by Headstall
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OK, I'm stumped:

 

What the heck is wrong with the name "Ashlee"?

It's one of those terribly affected 'fashionable' misspellings of a traditional name. Also, unlike my poor niece who was similarly named by my usually sensible sister, you know Ashlee picked this one all by himself because no parent (let alone a parent in Texas) would name his or her son that. Which suggests a shiny surface that you're afraid to scratch because there's nothing underneath. :(

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You know, it's not about type for me in this story. I have the flu so I may not make sense but...I guess what bothers me is that Clem was in love with Nathan and would have been happy with the big strong cowboy if he was tender and giving and put Clem first. I may be wrong but I don't agree that Clem was always attracted to another type...that would mean he would never have been truly happy no matter what Nathan was like. I think Nathan's actions made Clem crave softness and sweetness and caring. It bothers me that Clem looks at masculine guys and sees what he doesn't want (Nathan). That is stereotyping as well...that twinky guys deliver something different from masculine guys. I am a big masculine guy and I am as sweet and loving as any twink. It seems like Nathan has driven him to the other end of the spectrum where he is convinced it is where he'll find what he wants...and so crosses off anyone with a rougher appearance. There is a conflict within him that I resent. His actions at this point seem fear driven...If he looks in the mirror he will see exactly what he is avoiding, yet he is a really great guy. In my ideal world he wouldn't pass me over because of how I look...but it seems that he would right now. If Ash is the guy for him...then great...but it shouldn't be because he is girl pretty  and wears eyeliner....

 

 

EDIT: for future reference, I will be referring to Ashlee as Ash...sorry Sasha

 

But hon, he did go home with a couple of guys who were more butch (iPad corrected to "Utah," fair enough, I suppose) and it wasn't right for him. And a lot of the girly boys were not nice to Clem, and this one is. So I don't think it's about stereotypes entirely. Sorry you're sick on your lovely vacation :(

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 I just realized that the name Ashlee in this story made me picture "Ash-lay" from Redemption (before the previously mentioned mental slap that is).

 

Hense the reason I bullied Sasha into at least changing the spelling of the name.

 

 

Gary? Where did you get that Clem has been passing over other more masculine prospects since the breakup with Nathan? Have you read chapters I have not? I saw a man end a relationship that had been less than equal from the beginning and was now deteriorating to unacceptable violence, then down the road having a chance encounter with someone who happened to be the total opposite. I do not recall any romantic prospects being turned down between.

 

But hon, he did go home with a couple of guys who were more butch (iPad corrected to "Utah," fair enough, I suppose) and it wasn't right for him. 

 

And just when did this occur?  I do not recall this either. 

 

These guys are young - going home with someone who turns out to be not right for you happens. It's called dating. You have to kiss a lotta frogs before you find the prince(ss).

Edited by Kitt
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You know, it's not about type for me in this story. I have the flu so I may not make sense but...I guess what bothers me is that Clem was in love with Nathan and would have been happy with the big strong cowboy if he was tender and giving and put Clem first. I may be wrong but I don't agree that Clem was always attracted to another type...that would mean he would never have been truly happy no matter what Nathan was like. I think Nathan's actions made Clem crave softness and sweetness and caring. It bothers me that Clem looks at masculine guys and sees what he doesn't want (Nathan). That is stereotyping as well...that twinky guys deliver something different from masculine guys. I am a big masculine guy and I am as sweet and loving as any twink. It seems like Nathan has driven him to the other end of the spectrum where he is convinced it is where he'll find what he wants...and so crosses off anyone with a rougher appearance. There is a conflict within him that I resent. His actions at this point seem fear driven...If he looks in the mirror he will see exactly what he is avoiding, yet he is a really great guy. In my ideal world he wouldn't pass me over because of how I look...but it seems that he would right now. If Ash is the guy for him...then great...but it shouldn't be because he is girl pretty  and wears eyeliner....

 

 

EDIT: for future reference, I will be referring to Ashlee as Ash...sorry Sasha

 
What Irri said >
 
Also, if you have to shorten it, you will call him "Lee" - but he, and Clem, never shorten it.
 

But hon, he did go home with a couple of guys who were more butch (iPad corrected to "Utah," fair enough, I suppose) and it wasn't right for him. And a lot of the girly boys were not nice to Clem, and this one is. So I don't think it's about stereotypes entirely. Sorry you're sick on your lovely vacation  :(

 

 

It's one of those terribly affected 'fashionable' misspellings of a traditional name. Also, unlike my poor niece who was similarly named by my usually sensible sister, you know Ashlee picked this one all by himself because no parent (let alone a parent in Texas) would name his or her son that. Which suggests a shiny surface that you're afraid to scratch because there's nothing underneath. :(

nope, that's his legal name. his parents are just about as weird as parents of friends of mine at college who called their twin boys "Lloyd" and "Storm" - there's no telling with some people.

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Gary? Where did you get that Clem has been passing over other more masculine prospects since the breakup with Nathan? Have you read chapters I have not? I saw a man end a relationship that had been less than equal from the beginning and was now deteriorating to unacceptable violence, then down the road having a chance encounter with someone who happened to be the total opposite. I do not recall any romantic prospects being turned down between.

 

Irritable1, on 15 Dec 2014 - 03:49 AM, said:

But hon, he did go home with a couple of guys who were more butch and it wasn't right for him.

 

And just when did this occur?  I do not recall this either. 

 

Right at the beginning of chapter 4 (my bold parts):

'The only other guys who approached him in bars, and there had been several, were all like himself, like Nathan, and like the barman: all tall, strong, deeply masculine, and apparently dismissive of the skinny boys with their expensive shirts and dyed and styled hair. Only twice had Clem gone home with anyone, and both times had managed to abort the inevitable moment where he was asked to turn around and bend over. Every kiss was a power struggle to see who would end up on top, and Clem was tired of fighting.

 

They are probably not 'romantic' prospects, but they did represent his attempt to find someone, who would fit his dreams.

Edited by Timothy M.
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Gary? Where did you get that Clem has been passing over other more masculine prospects since the breakup with Nathan? Have you read chapters I have not? I saw a man end a relationship that had been less than equal from the beginning and was now deteriorating to unacceptable violence, then down the road having a chance encounter with someone who happened to be the total opposite. I do not recall any romantic prospects being turned down between.

 

Right at the beginning of chapter 4 (my bold parts):

'The only other guys who approached him in bars, and there had been several, were all like himself, like Nathan, and like the barman: all tall, strong, deeply masculine, and apparently dismissive of the skinny boys with their expensive shirts and dyed and styled hair. Only twice had Clem gone home with anyone, and both times had managed to abort the inevitable moment where he was asked to turn around and bend over. Every kiss was a power struggle to see who would end up on top, and Clem was tired of fighting.

 

They are probably not 'romantic' prospects, but they did represent his attempt to find someone, who would fit his dreams.

 

Thank you  Tim...I have been out of commission and probably shouldn't have posted in the shape I was in. I took from the passage that Tim highlighted that we were all considered the same in Clem's eyes because of who Nathan was and what Nathan had done and I resented that ...it is why I said I thought he was acting out of fear...what Clem needs is a great guy period....and It shouldn't matter what package he comes in...it he is naturally attracted to "the skinny boys with the expensive shirts and dyed and styled hair" then so be it. But as I said before, he obviously liked the package Nathan came in or at least that is what I thought. but what the heck do I know. Sorry if I offended anyone or pissed anyone off...I care about the characters and I really did read and think about every word that I read...I never skim and I make assumptions, yes...but only on what I read.....and Sasha I apologize about the "Ash" thing...In my muddled mind, I thought I was being funny...I will only refer to him as "Ashlee"...it is a fine name

 

 

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I never took that passage to mean Clem was dismissive of the big strong ones - just the ones who wanted things their way or the highway, and I can't blame him there! Had any man treated me the way Nathan treated him I would be writing to you from a correctional institution.

 

Oh, and don't forget!  I am very far ahead of you lot!  I thought that passage came much later in the story than it obviously did!

Edited by Kitt
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I never took that passage to mean Clem was dismissive of the big strong ones - just the ones who wanted things their way or the highway, and I can't blame him there! Had any man treated me the way Nathan treated him I would be writing to you from a correctional institution.

 

Oh, and don't forget!  I am very far ahead of you lot!  I thought that passage came much later in the story than it obviously did!

 

but if Clem had been happy with this type of guy approaching him why does he seem sad and searching at the bar. :unsure:

 

Although I agree that he would probably have nothing against a body like Nate's as long as the person inside was made of softer material. :lol:

Edited by Timothy M.
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