[Sasha Distan] Ladies' Man - American Songbook Track 9

[LitLover]

I think he seems sad for the same reason any of us looking for a meaningful connection might feel sad in his situation...meaningful is difficult to find in a bar setting. It can be disheartening when you've come out of a long term relationship to stand in a bar, wanting to connect with someone and finding that you just can't relate to a lot of people there. Add in that Clem seemed to feel that he stuck out like a sore thumb and I'm not surprised that he was sad. Some people just don't enjoy the bar scene.

[Sasha Distan]

Thank you  Tim...I have been out of commission and probably shouldn't have posted in the shape I was in. I took from the passage that Tim highlighted that we were all considered the same in Clem's eyes because of who Nathan was and what Nathan had done and I resented that ...it is why I said I thought he was acting out of fear...what Clem needs is a great guy period....and It shouldn't matter what package he comes in...it he is naturally attracted to "the skinny boys with the expensive shirts and dyed and styled hair" then so be it. But as I said before, he obviously liked the package Nathan came in or at least that is what I thought. but what the heck do I know. Sorry if I offended anyone or pissed anyone off...I care about the characters and I really did read and think about every word that I read...I never skim and I make assumptions, yes...but only on what I read.....and Sasha I apologize about the "Ash" thing...In my muddled mind, I thought I was being funny...I will only refer to him as "Ashlee"...it is a fine name

oh sweetie, don't be sorry. i'm not mad. you've not pissed me off or offended anybody (fine, I can't speak for anyone else, but they don't count - apart from Ma - because they're not the author). I was only demanding about the name because

i) everyone seem(ed) to hate it

ii) Ma and I had a whole conversation about not calling him Ash

Never be sorry for how you feel about the work Gary - how other people feel is kinda the whole point!

 

 

Tis a big difference between big and strong and being a big jerk

well said.

 

 

I think he seems sad for the same reason any of us looking for a meaningful connection might feel sad in his situation...meaningful is difficult to find in a bar setting. It can be disheartening when you've come out of a long term relationship to stand in a bar, wanting to connect with someone and finding that you just can't relate to a lot of people there. Add in that Clem seemed to feel that he stuck out like a sore thumb and I'm not surprised that he was sad. Some people just don't enjoy the bar scene.

bars suck if you want to have a meaningful conversation with someone: I'm fairly certain Kieran Tristan Toyne discovered that too.

[impunity]

 I was only demanding about the name because

i) everyone seem(ed) to hate it

ii) Ma and I had a whole conversation about not calling him Ash

 

It's the spelling. Calling him Ashley would have been perfectly acceptable.

[Sasha Distan]

It's the spelling. Calling him Ashley would have been perfectly acceptable.

 

it was too close to Ash-lay from Redemption's A Bitch

[Timothy M.]

it was too close to Ash-lay from Redemption's A Bitch

 

So is Ashlee

 

But never mind, he makes Clem happy, so who cares...

[Headstall]

Okay, so 'in for a penny-in for a pound'. I just know that I am going to piss a lot of people off but Sasha said to never be sorry about how I feel about one of his stories. I will start by saying I am in turmoil. I mean like really serious turmoil over a character everyone hates. Please hear me---I am really happy for Clem in finding Ashlee---It appears he finally has the chance at what he wants and deserves. I learned a long time ago that there are really no inconsequential characters in Sasha's works. By that I mean that if they make an appearance, they have an impact...some more than others of course. Some piss us off and some break our hearts and there is everything in between. In Nathan, Sasha created one that got under my skin and it has confused me. It was a tragedy how Clem has lived for three years, playing a role he absolutely hated, being treated abusively and violently. I care about him and I can relate to his need to get away from all of that. So why do I still care about Nathan...he has served his purpose... he has been the perfect asshole. We all consider him a rapist...and yet, to be honest...I actually really don't. It was something that Sasha said, in a post or response to a review...that he didn't think that either Clem or Nathan would consider it or call it rape. I agree with that. I think it was just more of the same for these two where sex was a battle. and sometimes a vicious one, each and every time. I don't condone it, and I certainly wouldn't live like that or put up with it....CLEM DID. That is not a judgement on Clem, although I am sure It will be taken that way. I don't know for sure why Clem put up with it, I can only speculate. But my guess would be that Nathan thought this was the way it was supposed to work between them. Clem staying for three years was telling Nathan that things were working...yeah Clem tried to tell him, but they were feeble and half hearted and Clem still got off by what his boyfriend did. Remember the smirk on Nathan's face that last time when he saw that Clem was turned on and still got off even though it was violent. Okay, I am stressing here but I have to try to get somewhere here that makes sense. The tragedy to me, in this story, is not Clem...he will find his happiness...It's Nathan. I am sure lots think Nathan didn't love Clem. I don't agree. It is tragic how really skewed and screwed up Nathan's judgement is...he has no idea about the give and take of love...his views of being gay are so warped that they make me want to cry...but my heart tells me that he loves Clem and I worry what having lost him will do to him. In a perfect world he would learn from his mistakes and get counseling. At the very least he needs someone who will actually get in his face and be honest with him...I am sure Ashlee might have a go at him but that is not what I mean. Without help he could be headed on a downward spiral...I know it is hard to believe he could end up a bigger asshole than he already is. Back to him loving Clem...when the guys he worked with commented on how badly he was doing since Clem stopped coming around, I'm sorry. but I felt for him. I don't know how he got the way he is, but I think he had a false sense of security and really didn't have a clue about what he was doing wrong. He really believed that he was acting and seeing the world around him the way a GAY MAN was supposed to. I think there is horrendous sadness in that...in a way that may not be understood by many, in a world that can really fuck us up for who we are...I see Nathan as a victim too.

 

I know the point is moot, the deed is done and the story is written...but until I get this off my chest, that turmoil I spoke of, will stick around. It is to Sasha's credit that any given character he creates can do this to me....and any of you that may think that I am missing the point or don't get it...well...believe me, I do

Cheers...Gary 

Edited December 18, 2014 by Headstall

[Irritable1]

 

In a perfect world he would learn from his mistakes and get counseling. At the very least he needs someone who will actually get in his face and be honest with him..

 

I agree, but it's such an awkward spot. Setting aside Nathan for a minute, suppose you've got a guy who's decided to make himself unpleasant---whose moral responsibility is it to explain to him what he's doing, deal with the loud conflict, and alienate him? In a small town, where he's going to sulk and hold a grudge for however many years? especially when there are nice young people growing up all the time without guidance who need protection from kids like him?  I agree, someone should do it, but you can understand why it wouldn't happen for a long time. It's a pity that one of his parents hasn't taken the lead on this, maybe they didn't feel confident dealing with "gay things"?

 

 

 

 I think there is horrendous sadness in that...in a way that may not be understood by many, in a world that can really fuck us up for who we are...I see Nathan as a victim too.

 

Mmmmf. Not arguing with your larger point at all, Gary, but whatever fucked up Nathan, in terms of making his own character he's actually kind of snatched defeat out of the jaws of victory. I mean lots of real people have started off in worse places, and have been better human beings, even at 25.  I'm not saying he's not a victim, for all that. Just... the story has not given us any evidence that he's been hurt. Clem is the one who was thrown out.

[Irritable1]

But I do understand that self-image is a delicate thing especially when kids are trying to sort this stuff out, and a life-changing fear might not even come out of someone's unkindness. (thinking of a really sad part of the Bridegroom documentary) So I'm over-simplifying. I do feel sorry for Nate. Trust in Sasha?

Edited December 18, 2014 by Irritable1

[Headstall]

I agree, but it's such an awkward spot. Setting aside Nathan for a minute, suppose you've got a guy who's decided to make himself unpleasant---whose moral responsibility is it to explain to him what he's doing, deal with the loud conflict, and alienate him? In a small town, where he's going to sulk and hold a grudge for however many years? especially when there are nice young people growing up all the time without guidance who need protection from kids like him?  I agree, someone should do it, but you can understand why it wouldn't happen for a long time. It's a pity that one of his parents hasn't taken the lead on this, maybe they didn't feel confident dealing with "gay things"?

 

 

Mmmmf. Not arguing with your larger point at all, Gary, but whatever fucked up Nathan, in terms of making his own character he's actually kind of snatched defeat out of the jaws of victory. I mean lots of real people have started off in worse places, and have been better human beings, even at 25.  I'm not saying he's not a victim, for all that. Just... the story has not given us any evidence that he's been hurt. Clem is the one who was thrown out.

I really just wanted to get this off my chest and move on but that is not how it works in a forum with so many different opinions. If you want the absolute truth, I will say it and have people hate me more. Clem should not have pussyfooted around and accepted the situation for so long. I AM NOT BLAMING CLEM FOR THE ABUSE. I just think they both went through life in a confused state. The point is that we don't know anything about Nathan outside of him and Clem so there is no reason to think he was a bully to others. As far as small towns go, I live in one...there are confrontations and fights and divisions in the community all the time. When I talk of Nathan being a victim, I am thinking of the pressures of the world around him that somehow contributed to his warped view of what being gay is...there is some reason why he thinks he needs to be cold and domineering and in control and not show any weakness and have scorn for anything girly coming from a gay man....maybe he came up with it all on his own...I don't know...I just know that he is one confused mess of a gay man and I find that, as I said, very sad. The saddest thing of all is what he deprives himself of...what he feels he HAS to deprive himself of...there is the tragedy in my mind, because to share love in a give and take manner is the most wonderful thing in the world and if, at 25, you can't let yourself have that...then what will be the point to his life. I really didn't want to go here...I don't expect anyone to see it the way I do....

I always trust in Sasha...even after Heartbrake

[Kitt]

I think you are all getting hung up on the "gay" aspect.  After working in a school system for 15 years I have seen many different sorts of abusive relationships. The sort of control Nathan was exerting over Clem is not so much a function of how he perceives gay men, but more an issue of being IN CONTROL.  It happens in m/f relationships as often as in gay ones.  Certainly Nathan's warped sense of bottoms being pansy's and not wanting to "be a pansy" contributed to the situation, but the roots go much deeper.

 

Do I think Nathan is also a victim? Yes - to an extent. But it is something only he can fix, and before that can happen he has to WANT to fix it. An alcoholic who does not want to stop drinking doesn't - a junkie who does not want to get clean never does. So too a control freak does not let go of control unless he WANTS to change.  That is not to say change cannot happen - it can and does. I just don't think Nathan is ready for it yet. 

 

Might this send Nathan into a downward spiral? Sure can! But sometimes you have to hit rock bottom before you can climb out.

[Headstall]

No Kitt, I don't think I did get hung up on the gay aspect in the way you are saying. That would be making how I looked at this whole thing as narrow. If we want to talk about having seen abusive relationships, I haven't just seen them...I have lived them. My mother, god rest her soul had THREE of them and I was with her every step of the way through all of them and I still have nightmares because of the memories. I was talking about the sadness of how Nathan views what being gay is or means to him, yes...and the tragedy that I saw in that. I don't know how far the roots go, and I don't know why he is the way he is but there is a lot of pressure on gay people that there isn't on straight people and it can be a minefield for our psyches to go through. A lot of us get lost in the slag heap because of those pressures. Why he sees gay people and his role as a gay man the way he does is a mystery of sorts to me but I do consider him a lost soul...a confused, tragic and sad lost soul...and as presented by Sasha, how he looks at gayness is the biggest part of that...and that is what got to me, as a gay man who has had to navigate my own minefields, coming from a background of domestic violence and abuse and often being afraid of my own shadow as a child.

[Irritable1]

It's confusing. Because if you're isolated as a minority it can definitely screw up your self-image in all kinds of crazy ways... But if you get to the point of acting out the way Nathan is doing then maybe it's everyone's job to straighten you out----but many well-intentioned straight people would not feel that they could argue with a gay man who talks the way Nathan does. And if he avoids other gay people, he has no hope of getting better...

[Sasha Distan]

Okay, so 'in for a penny-in for a pound'.

....  ....

 

So why do I still care about Nathan...he has served his purpose... 

 

1) I love this phrase

2) Nathan's story is not over. His purpose in Ladies' Man might be served; but his life is not over, and I will not leave you to wonder eternally of his fate.

 

PS: many kisses xxx

[LitLover]

1) I love this phrase

2) Nathan's story is not over. His purpose in Ladies' Man might be served; but his life is not over, and I will not leave you to wonder eternally of his fate.

 

PS: many kisses xxx

I'm happy we'll know what will become of Nate. I'm hoping at some point in the future he will have learned some lessons.

 

We also should remember, no one is irredeemable, but that doesn't mean everyone is going to want redemption.

Edited December 18, 2014 by LitLover

[Timothy M.]

Hey, you posted half an hour early.

so I got to read before I went to bed. Awesome chapter, Sasha.

Ash certainly isn't the shy type - he goes for what he wants.

[Irritable1]

Ash certainly isn't the shy type - he goes for what he wants.

 

LOL. I find Ashlee completely unnerving (see my review).  I can't wait to see the effect he has on Nathan.

[Timothy M.]

Thanks Irri, that was my like no. 1500 - I've gone from unstoppable to awesome.

 

I think we're all waiting to see Nathan's reaction.

[Sasha Distan]

well you'll all have to wait awhile. I'm not gonna spoil Clem and Ashlee's new beginning with Nathan's anger just yet...

[Irritable1]

Aw I don't want them to be upset. I just want to watch Nathan being appalled.

[Kitt]

Appalled.   Such a lovely word for the situation.

[Irritable1]

Also because it evokes someone clutching a strand of pearls. Teehee.

[Cole Matthews]

1) I love this phrase

2) Nathan's story is not over. His purpose in Ladies' Man might be served; but his life is not over, and I will not leave you to wonder eternally of his fate.

 

PS: many kisses xxx

 

I believe another penny phrase fits with Nathan.  A bad penny always shows up.   I can't wait to witness it.

 

i also think Nathan is intriguing.  Repugnant, but tortured. 

[Sasha Distan]

ohhh... would we call him repugnant?

 

Nathan did bad things, but I'm not sure he is fundamentally a bad person. Warped, but not evil.

[Cole Matthews]

ohhh... would we call him repugnant?

 

Nathan did bad things, but I'm not sure he is fundamentally a bad person. Warped, but not evil.

 

I don't think he's evil. I just think the last time he was with Clem he was a terrible, selfish person who hurt him, badly. Certainly warped is a good word.

[Kitt]

ohhh... would we call him repugnant?

 

Nathan did bad things, but I'm not sure he is fundamentally a bad person. Warped, but not evil.

Warped is usually taught by warped friends or relatives - sometimes totally beyond ones own control.